Musclemagic

Nothing is more frustrating, than beeing pulled/stunned/snared at a high rate and u cant kill the person, coz hes pretty durable.

Shield Charge and Low Slash and a few white hits will fuck most DDs up

Pulling healer 24/7 is also very annoying

 

I'd just get full HA and a mix of Mag/Sta reg stones depending on race. Just to spam my "ill fuck u up" spells infininetly.Put some nice support spells in the mix and that would be a fun build to play.

Yeah, taking regen instead of power just to do utility spells is what all tanks should be doing after they have enough resistances and such. If you build your character with low health though, you'll suffer from being killed faster even if you have the ability to do more things to mess with people--or even to heal yourself--I don't think anything justifies taking away HP from your character's innate build if you plan on PvPing. 66% HP purebreads, in all builds, FTW. XD --Bold statement, but I can only see a few exceptions to this for PvP.

I don't think that it will be a problem that tanks will win most 1 vs 1 simply because there won't be many 1 vs 1 fights in Cyrodiil.

I agree, they will win 1v1 fights pretty much every time IMO--or at least not die in them--but they will be useless if played incorrectly (as in, trying to actually achieve a goal other than just fucking with people. The ones who try to DPS and such instead of holding/supporting/etc) in group-battles.

I'm just teasing you irons, I know you're going to DPS-tank and I think it's worth trying to do, I just don't know how well it will do in groups.

Food for thread:

I believe that Daggerfall Convention's the best alliance by a huge amount. Not only do they not have a mountain or large stream to navigate that could come as a disadvantage to someone coming into Cyrodiil like Aldmeri or Ebonheart do..Daggerfall just has a pretty open field-ish area.

And just think about their racials for a moment--

Orc - Best tanky tank

Redguard - Best stam based DPS, even above Khajiit IMO with the change from Stam to HP regen on Khajiit.

Breton - Best casters unless you want shock damage on a sorce or something--which is still only better in PVE because of the resistance passive.

So, that's my opinion. What do you guys think is the best alliance and why?

But Musclemagic thinks/reckons/etc...therefor its almost a given fact in his opinion.tbh the groupsetup he described wont work in OW. Its seems like he has close to no experience, when it comes to OW playstyle. Like alwaysU cant stand toe to toe with a zerg if u are <10 players. And the above groupsetup is clearly designed to do that. Frontline,Backline etc

Nobody other than you said it would be like that, so you have the entirely wrong idea. You're the only person who's actually trying to compare this to DAOC. Although I do think that if they're stacked right, that 3*X group pattern could put out enough DPS to kill a large amount of people, I don't think it's likely that they'd actually stop a zerg..even at a choke point, the way you can get out of CC in ESO means that it's highly unlikely to succeed at stopping a zerge with lower numbers.

Also, just because I say that I reckon it'll work like this, doesn't mean that I myself even believe that it's true. If you knew me, you'd realize that I am a soft-agnostic with everything, and I don't believe in facts very easily. It's pure speculation, and I don't appreciate being made fun of just for believing it to be one way or another.

I expect them to have limits on how many people are effected by AoE's just think about buffs or the DK passive where he gets stamina back if an ability effects another player. In a big fight he would gain 100% stamina back.

I think that Molten Weapon or Obsidian Shield or another big buff like that will be able to affect all the targets in the area, but if they have it active already from another DK or w/e then it will only refresh the buff rather than stack on top of it. With that in mind, these buffs like Molten Weapon are meant to be active on the whole group for a very long time, so they obviously want to make it a communal buff like that--given that it takes 1/5 of your skill choices on any given bar to just take a group-buff like that, similar to Restoring Aura. It's entirely sensible that it will effect everybody.

On the other hand, with passives like +4% stamina when one of your Earth abilities targets another player, will only work on 1 player--just like a Templar casting spells won't get 4*4% when they cast Piercing Strikes, it will only going to work once per cast... Although, DKs have very little ways to get resources back, so if it does stack and you can cast Molten Weapons on 10 different people, gg you just recovered a total of 5 resources (-35mp+40st).. I think DKs need this kind of resource rebate, and it makes sense that it's stamina.

But, having said all this, I actually believe that all buffs could be capped at 4 players--and all damage will be uncapped because it's already very limited. 5m might as well be a single-target spell. Drain Power, Inhale, and Fiery Breath are the biggest AOE DPS spells out there, but they're point-blank.

It's too early to say one way or another.. I keep going back and forth now, we'll just have to wait and find out I guess. I do believe it'll ALL be uncapped because things seem pretty balanced already, and even though a few OP things will be revealed--there'll be a counter found (or patched) soon enough.

All this is irrelevant until we actually know how big groups like this will work, for now can we please further discuss team compositions--because that helps us decide character creation, which is the first thing we're all still working on.

Hey mate, 

 

I wouldnt go that far in comparison to other clases ( i dont have other class numbers ) but i am not overwelmed with DK numbers and facts ( no feasible long range , pretty bad aoe, have to play in robes ) so far. Thanks for running numbers. I made my decision and ill stick with DK. Game is like 5-6 months far from release and ballancing can jump in at the end. Ill squezee out every drop dps from him eventually and hope for the best  

I have asked several confirmations in my previous mail - like how much i will get from one enchant, crit multiplier......  

thanks again 

Thank you! I love talking about this stuff, and even though you're not going to play as another class--I'd be really interested to hear your builds on them sometime if you ever make one!

Its not abt how many ppl u can find at the keep!Its abt how many u can hit with aoe abilitys.There were many mmos in the past that had a maximum targetnumber for aoes. Even thou it was not in the tooptip....

The AOE's are very small in this game, and when there's a certain number of targets affected it specifies. I reckon it's a true AOE and not limited by # of targets. That wouldn't be very ES-ish.

A bit late to the party? You went to the wrong house! 

Hey, sorry I was AFK in the chat. Let's just say calculate the costs before calculating the estimated damage:

Searing Strike = 18 mp every 10 seconds.

Fiery Breath = 35 mp every 6 seconds, but you'll only use this on multi-mobs because Lava Whip is better extra-attack for single-target than Fiery Breath is--all the time--so exclude for now, we'll just calculate the single-target costs.

Weakness to Elements = 35 mp every 15 seconds.

Spiked Armor = 42 MP every 17 seconds.

Lava Whip = The remaining MP as often as necessary, so calculated afterwards.

42 mp every 17 seconds, 18 mp every 10 seconds, 35 mp every 15 seconds.

42/17 + 18/10 + 35/15 = 6.6 MP/S.

Include Evocation: 6.6 - (6.6 x .21) = 5.2

Base mana = 106 + 3.2 MP/S. + Recover = 106 + (3.2*1.28) = 4 MP/S regen.

Enchantments and set-bonuses will increase the MP you have access to, but we don't know by how much so let's not try to factor that in yet.

It's noble of you to try to calculate DPS but I think it's much to early for that as well. Let's take your number though, that it will take about 20 seconds to kill someone in PVP (which I think is much too long, but I have no information to support that claim).

If a fight lasts for 20 seconds you'll have spent (18+35+42=) (95-95x.21=) 75 mana for the first 10 seconds and then after those 10 seconds you'll need to spend another (18-18*.21=)14 --which you'll have gained (4 MP/S x 10 =) 40 mana, add this to the (106-75=) 31 mana you already have for 71 after 10 seconds--you could cast a Lava Whip for (35-35*.21=) 28 MP, bringing you down to (71-28=) 43 mana, meaning that you have plenty of mana to re-cast Weakness to Elements for (35*.21+35=) 28 mp 5 second later, and you'll have gained another 20 MP so you'll only lose (28-20=) 8 MP in that time bringing you down from 43 to 35. At this point, you won't get much duration (3 seconds) out of Spiked Armor so a Lava Whip is a much better choice if the fight's close to ending.

Your total damage of this 20 seconds was 2x searing for 52, lava whip 2x for 38, for 90 damage. Add crit, add spell power, add the + fire dmg and everything else, then add the targets mitigation and you'll come back at around 90 damage still. Meaning that you only need 10 damage from your fire weapon to kill your target. Of course, this is a long ass time because of their HP recovery will be massive and they will be using some defensive abilities as well, so they're likely to be able to gain this life back.

But, I figure that about 50% of sustained DPS will be from white hits, meaning that you're doing 180 damage in 20 seconds.

If they are recovering 4.5% per second, 150% the norm, and they start with 100 health, then within 20 seconds you'll have had to do (100 x .045 = 4.5 x 20 = 90 + 100 = 190 effective HP in a 20 second fight.) and it's about even, making the tank hard to kill. The thing is that their damage is probably low enough that they can't kill you either, and all things are equal.

But, pretend that you do this instead:

28 mp for Weakness, 12 mp for Searing, and then use the rest for Lava Whips. That's 40 initial mp and then using 28 mp whenever you can, you'll have 66 mp to start with and within 10 seconds you'll have gained 40 mana meaning you'll have 106 mp for Lava Whips within 10 seconds. 106/28mp = 3.8, so almost 4--but not quite Lava Whips.

Let's calculate that damage: 26 + 19x3 = 57 x 1.4 = 79.8, ~8 DPS. Add in ~80 damage from white attacks and you're at 16 DPS.

If the fight lasts 10 seconds then 160 damage > (100x.045 = 4.5 x 10 = 45+100 =) 145 HP in 10 seconds. Meaning you just killed that tank.

This is why you want to have burst damage, and you can't just rely on sustained DPS and playing defensively as a DPS. The tank WANTS the fight to last a long time. The more things you put on the bar for defense, the better the tank kills you, because that's exactly what they want you to do.

The point of all those numbers right now (since we can't know anything for certain) is that there are ways to overcome things even if they look too difficult at first.

A nightblade can put out huge bursts, but lower sustained damage than your build. So it's not really whether you have high DPS or not in PVP, it depends on a ton of things. In a group, however, which is where you'll be--hidden from those NBs, in your dungeon, you'll have to rely on group for things.

You won't need to use Spiked Armor all the time, especially when fighting a tank with high HP regen or something.

You won't need to use Fiery Breath too often probably, only in certain circumstances. In these circumstances, you'll most definitely want Spiked Armor active--but you won't want to use searing strike or weakness, so you'll have plenty of MP to use Fiery Breath every 6 seconds on multi-targets.

Your numbers were all right, it looked like, but it's too early to say the higher-up things because we don't know how much set-bonuses will affect things like MP and such.

I'm glad to have a number cruncher around, it'll be fun to run things by you later when we have solid numbers on higher levels and enchantments and everything. ^.^

EDIT: The sad fact is, that NB's specced right will still be able to out DPS in both burst and sustained up-close damage. Sorces will outdue your AOE, and they are even at range. Templars will outdue your support. DKs will outdue your survival*damage overall when they're specced for survival.

This build's only good if you also take inferno and go all-out dmg on your Destro-Bar... but then, yes, you will die very easily.

It's sad, very sad, but your best bet as a DK is tanking and there's no way around it if you truly want to min/max.

DKs have to use ST and MP evenly in their bar, or they'll be even more gimped for resources, and so a medium armor build might work--but that doesn't work very well with their DPS actives, so you won't benefit as much as a NB in medium. You're doomed to a S&S+All Heavy build, and if you don't like it for min/max then you should play a NB if you like being in the thick of things or a Sorce if you want to be on the outskirts.

I'm sorry, but it's the truth. Being a Dunmer is still your best choice by quite a lot, the extra fire damage will help buffer your weakish DPS as a tank and the +6% stam and +6% mp is perfect for S&S in heavy.. but the damage isn't as important as a tank, so still a redguard or orc is better for PVE DK tank.

EDIT #2: I actually think that this fire DPS will be massive because each +Power will have a lot of +dmg %'s from all the synergy where other classes don't have so much. It turns into MP vs Power, where other classes have more MP and you have more DMG amplifiers with this build. This is why you need to go as many points into MP as you can, you have the capability to do a huge amount of damage, it's worth more than points into HP (which you'll still have a solid 33% into, since you're not using St. in this build.)

For those who haven't played daoc perhaps you could eleborate

Please don't worry about things like this, the person is not a child and the person obviously knows that it's a new/different game. I don't know why you're comparing DAOC to ESO for no reason. I believe they were simply stating that they enjoy group PVP.

It's true that we don't know how many people will be within a certain radius that spells can affect, or how many people we can typically expect to find at a keep (whether it's 3, 10, 40, or 200, we have no real idea.) But we do know how the spells will generally be like and their basic functions so this thread's not completely irrelevant. But, discussing OW in DAOC..is pretty irrelevant, please keep that to PMs if interested.

You just have to edit the post and then click "Use Full Editor."

 

Good concept for a thread by the way, I haven't seen much discussion on groups yet.

Ah, yeah, I think I've been told how to a few times..but I can never remember. XD Thanks though for fixing it

Dear Mod,

Please change thread name to Cyrodiil PVP Theory or simply World PVP Theory. I do not know how to do it, lol.

Love,

Muscles

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about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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I think 8-10 of well coordinated people is going to due well with a lot of AOE, anything over 3 targets the AOE damage overwhelms both AOE healing and single-target damage by a pretty big amount.

I've done a lot of thinking about groups of all sizes, but right now there's not enough information about how buffs/debuffs will stack to really get a good idea of what combinations will work the best.

If "taunts" make it so targets can only face toward the one opponent in this game, or if there's any little thing like that -- it could change everything about group compositions..so it's hard to say right now.

If you're really interested, message me once beta's out and I'll have a lot better ideas about group comps! ^.^

I'm glad you like my FB page, I do most my theorycrafting on ElderSouls.com though--and there's about 4 other great guys on there as well so it's worth checking out.

about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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do* not due. Your combination looks pretty solid at this point, until we know all the details that combination will probably be one of the strongest.

I might suggest going more DKs, no NBs. ~4 temps 3 dk 3 sorc would be a seemingly good ratio...

about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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Temps would all need Rushed Ceremony because I do not believe that dmg absorbs will stack and the healing ritual would be too far from the DKs who will be taking most the damage.

The Temps will definitely all want Eclipse as well, with the health-orb morph.

One of them should take Restoring Aura, 2 of them should take Purge (Not Cleansing Ritual, because Purge gives more MP regen)

All templars should take Rune Focus for the mitigation and the aoe+healing for the sorce's.

You should pair up 1 temp with 1 sorce in the back--and keep them spread out. Have the 1 extra, odd, temp up in front with the dks so there's a main-target--have him take a few heavy pieces and keep Immovable and Rune Focus up at all times and be 66% (max) into HP from leveling with high resistance enchants.

about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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It's okay if the DKs get spread out a bit, as long as 1 DK is in Grip-range of each of the sorce/temp combos, and all 3 DKs are within the Rushed Ceremony range. (22m per group, 28m range total for dk's/temps.)

2 DKs should take Dark Talons, 1 should take Ash Cloud (the one in medium armor should take Ash Cloud, if there's one in medium.)

A few good DPS DKs will be in light armor with a Destro Staff--especially if you're in the alliance with Dunmer.. Probably only worth taking them for this setup if they're very VERY good at the game, otherwise he'll just get fucked up.

about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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And, of course you want at least 1 DK with obsidian shield, the one in medium should have spiked armor.

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There should be at least 1 person with magelight, 1 with rapid maneuver, 1-2 with siege shield, and you all should have max-speed horses (rather than carrying or tanking)- of course.

about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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For the sorce's they should ALL have Mage's Fury, Lightning Splash, Daedric Curse, Daedric Mines, and Lightning Form.

Lightning Form is the best mitigation in the game, so it's hopefully all that they need for ~6 seconds when a few people are past the DKs.

There should always be Daedric Mines set up between the DKs and the Templars/Sorces--that 22m gap should be full of them, especially on the periphery. And then curses, furies, and splashes all around--splashes in the dark talons... Hmm, okay, I change what I said earlier, 1 person should have Dark Talons and be paired with the templar--the other 2 DK should both have Ash Cloud.

The one DK with Dark Talons will be the Kill-targets DK, the Sorce's will drop their Splashes around that guy--and as needed, of course, but mostly around that guy if he can keep a lot around him.

about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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The sorces should be doing a lot of heavy attacks, the DKs should be doing a lot of blocking-- to get targets off balance, and then the sorces attacks will knock them down.

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If I didn't mention Molten Weapons, I just forgot, but 1 DK MUST have molten weapons, probably the one who's not in medium but isn't the one with dark talons.

about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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DKs- 2 in heavy, 1 main. 1 in medium.

Fiery Grip 3x

Inhale 2x/Defensive Posture-main)

Dark Talons (Main)/Ash Cloud/Defensive Posture(heavy#2)

Spiked Armor 2x (Main and Medium)/Molten Weapons

Obsidian Shield/Low Slash(main)/Defensive Poster(Medium armor)

I'm not giving Inhale to the main tank because he'll have the PB Templar with him. Hopefully a lot of the melee will try to go to that Templar, in which case they'll get fucked up fast by Talon/Splashes.

about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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It'll be hard to kill a lot of well organized caster-only groups, but as long as you can get within 22 meters of them (your DKs need the +range morph on grip because the +40% dmg only applies to next single weapon swing and isn't worth it for a group where they're not the DPS in this case.)

But anyway, rapid maneuver will get your medium-armor guy within range pretty fast (sprint speed as well) and then he an pull one back, and you can just chain pull them back to the group and kill them one target at a time.

The way your group would have to counter that happening to them is just by playing the field well--being aware of other dks and having the templars ready to push to the 28m range for heals.

Having 1 NB wouldn't be a bad idea if they have Agony with Dmg-Continues morph and Cripple, ticking for +Ult, and using the Assn's Blade morph for +Ult... because if they can use a lot of Consuming Darkness ultimates and you guys all "Slip Away-synergy" and travel like that up to casters, it would solve a lot of problems. You guys could always stealth but you'd run out of Stam before you could get there. Of course the Medium Armor DK could always solo-stealth a bit further and then the chain-pull could occur and whack away at groups right away by those means..

3 minutes ago

Musclemagic

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This, at least, is what I plan on doing for my guild. It can be an infinitely large or small group (3sum), the plan still works. Keep it as 1 up front and 2 in back, that way they won't be aoe'd, and then spread out those groups of 3, but always keep groups of 3 and a templar or two lurking in the front if there's a big enough group to allow it.

It's perfect formation to allow for a huge amount of people without being able to be AOE'd down... and then, yeah, you get it. It'll be awesome. Haha

about a minute ago

Musclemagic

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The only issue is finding enough templars for the back, and then some who are willing to take S&S and a couple heavy pieces-- and PB spells and such. XD

omg I can't wait for this game..

So, yeah, that's my current plan..you sneaky sneaks are going to steal it! MY PRECIOUS!... I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions and plans though as well! So gimme gimme gimme some theory!? ^.^

Areodon, I was keeping Fiery Grip because you initially had it, but irons is spot on--you won't need it, or even want it, in a dungeon. The +40% damage to next white hit isn't a big increase in overall damage at all, so that shouldn't be the reason you take it.

irons recommendations are perfect, I'd personally take Spiked Armor or Ash Cloud on bar#1 instead of Obsidian Shield because it protects you in the ways you need protection and also does DPS (spiked)--and you're the DPS. Spiked also gives you +12% healing received at all times it's up, which is huge and helps the healer and tank a lot.. but Ash Cloud helps the tank more, so it's a toss up in my opinion between those two.

Obsidian Shield on bar#2 might take longer to cast off, but I see bar#2 as a passive bar--not an active thing where you'd be switching to it in combat to actually try to heal a single target or anything like that--you'd just be buffing your group.

Open with Petrify on #2 (your Fiery Breath won't break it..as long as you don't aim your cone at the Petrified target. )

Before a heavy-aoe damage incoming, switch to #2 and throw down obsidian and regeneration before switching bar to your bar, you're not trying to heal--you're just trying to create a buffer for the healer/tank in some (rare-ish) situations.

And, keeping Molten Weapons up from #2 at all times is of course a good idea. As well as Force-Siphon for hard single-targets like bosses or mini bosses. Bar#2's just a passive support bar that helps both you and your group, mostly your group as a whole, so that everything just goes smoother--your bar#1's strictly DPS because that is your role.

I'd also change irons suggestion of inferno to Force Shock or Lava Whip because without a gap closer, having at least 1 ranged attack other than your white hits will be very nice to have---and also the fact that it's spammable means a LOT when single-target burst is needed. The interrupt from Force Shock is also quite nice to just have around.

Here's the bars I'd recommend without Fiery Grip:

Destro-

Weakness to Elements

Force Shock/Lava Whip

Searing Strike

Fiery Breath

Spiked Armor

Resto-

Petrify

Molten Weapons

Force Siphon

Obsidian Shield

Regeneration

 Why - simple math is showing that full rotation without gaps is totally impossible ( spamming). It means that we have time for a lot of things and among other for hotbar switching. If i am right then we better have some solutions for stamina supply. 

Ahh, now I see why you want two bars. You are wrong though, you will definitely be able to keep up Spiked Armor, the dots on Searing Strike and Fiery Breath up, and keep Weakness of Elements up on one target without having to wait for MP. The other abilities are on a need-to-use basis...which is also why they're on a second bar.

Quit talking about Stamina though, you don't use it and you won't need much of it in PVE so don't worry about it. You should spec a lot into MP simply because you're in a group that has your back. You should have theirs by being able to do a lot of damage, as your DPS role is supposed to do. The extra MP = a lot more Force Shocks (you could go Lava Whip if you don't mind the range, it's a lot more damage) on Single Targets or Fiery Breath spams into AOE.

EDIT: Bone Shield would be a good alternative to Spiked Armor, because you get about the same melee-mitigation personally, but your group can activate it to help themselves out by a HUGE amount if necessary. But, it's slightly less mitigation and since you're a melee-ranged clothy, you'll want the +12% healing as well..you're going to need it, because once you start getting bursted down--every second is life or death for a melee-ranged-clothy. Excitement!!

This build's gotten even stronger thanks to irons inputs. I really really like it!

Not sure about Argonians for healing, the +15% resto exp will be good for leveling up but will be useless once you hit max, +7% healing 'received' wont effect healing others.I like the sound of a sorcerer healer but it seems it wont be a good idea to use magicka for damage dealing at the same time as healing.Would I be able to use healing and bow together but then also use destruction magic for solo play? Would it weaken me on the whole having to level all 3?

You'd need to change enchantments between bow and destro use, especially if you plan on using many stamina attacks from it. Of course it won't be devastating, you'll just do a little bit less.

There's going to be so many people with bows though, haha, that's the only reason why I'm not making a bow class.

EDIT: Argonian VS Dunmer, you either get +6% magicka or you get +disease/poison resistances and +7% healing taken.

+7% healing taken and +some mitigation to me seems better than 6% magicka because in PVP the healer's going to be targeted a LOT. And, 6% is a lot but not enough to get me hard.

Sadly, the +15% resto staff experience is worthless, your weapon/armor skills will level fast or slow based on your character level anyway..leveling them faster doesn't really do anything anyway...I mean, sure it'll help a bit--to unlock higher-up skills faster..but because you don't need to use skills, you just need to have the weapon equipped to level up weapons/armors, it's not like it takes up any of your time to level them. At least that's my opinion on those +item XP racials..that they're not even worth looking at when considering a character.

Why is that terrible news for the game? You can change your build and role at will in Rift, heck, even in WoW.

You can't change instantly to this extent though. It's going to make dungeons really easy after you learn the dungeon, and really really hard when you don't know the dungeons. It just punishes people who don't play a ton and spreads the PVE skill-curve based on experience rather than gameplay, which I'm never a fan of.

We'll just have to wait and see how they do it. It's not like it ruins anything, I just think it would be better to have to at least run a single dungeon without being able to change builds to this extent.. although that wouldn't be ES-ish.... I get that you need to be able to pick up a new weapon and use it, so you'd have to be able to at least change your weapon spells around.

Tanking ? No i dont want to tank. I told u in previous mails what i want to do - dps based on fire.  

What long range spells do i have on my disposal ( in my opinion i have Force shock and entropy ( mage guild) - single target both) - only thing i have for long range is white hits. From my perspective I have all single and aoe damage i need. All that tanking spells ( damage mitigation) are there to compensate for light armor. Imagine if i went for heavy armor - then u would say - no mate u dont have enough magic. That 9 in stamina is there to be able to break from cc and besides i don't know how much i will spend of it to make let say 15 m run, how much one block costs,  how i will survive aoe (have to run out and grip guy to me). Those questions are just fraction of questions i have on my mind.

What i wanted to accomplish with my two bars - i wanted to manage actives and passives behind it in most cost efficient way focusing resource management, wanted to have sufficient survivability for close range combat considering that DK + destro doesn't have long range spells which give bang for buck equal to my class spells. At the end i have on the bars what i have.  But seriously - take a look what u suggested me like 2-3 mails ago ( destro - resto ). 

Funny thing is that i make my living on crunching numbers and have very little or none of necessary info to start with.  

P.S. Splitting bars on single and aoe is totally wrong from my experience but still i have buffer ( petrify )and aoe would be above two mobs and considering aoe is lacking range i don't see much i can get/lose there. 

I know you don't want to tank, but that's what it looks like you're trying to do with bar#2. It's not a support bar, just a tank bar with no taunt and without damage that you can time for key-points or anything. I'm sorry, but for group PVE your bar #2 is not a good bar.

Destro - Resto would be a much better combination because you could still do the exact (actually more) amount of damage but your other bar will actually be worthwhile for your group.

You say you want a dungeon build, and you say your goal with both bars is DPS with fire emphasis.... yet neither of your bars will do as much DPS as they would if you were more focused. The truth is that for group PVE you need to be a lot more directed per each bar than if you were PVE solo.

I'm sure your grasp on numbers is very good but right here it's not about the numbers it's about the group synergy.

So, here's what I'd recommend: Don't take stamina for an all MP build. Ditch the 2 heavy for more DPS, and just rely on your group a bit more. You also said it's not a good idea to split up single and AOE damage, so I'll try to fix that. You also split your defensives so they are completely self-serving. Again, relying on your group a bit more would be better because your only defensives for yourself are within melee range again, so you're forced to rely on your group a lot-especially as Destro-Destro (which I am still against because it's simply overkill-you're not using a destro skill in bar#2, why not go resto and help out a bit more?--and actually do a bit more damage, which I'll explain later. Petrify doesn't need to be on your DPS bar because it lasts long and it's a support spell that isn't always necessary--you should be trying to DPS with bar#1, in my opinion.

Trying to achieve the same goal with both bars is silly, you can find a "best" combination and just use that. I'll try to incorporate your desire though for defensives and offensives mixed within each other.

Your first bar is fine, my only recommendation is that I'd put petrify on your other bar. Spiked Armor's a good choice for your bar#1 because of light armor and that you'll be in melee-ranged a lot. Spiked armor also gives you the +healing passive that's amazing from that tree.

You won't benefit the group as much with the two muddled bars as you would if you were able to do more DPS with one, and support the group when you aren't DPSing with the other bar.

So, here's what I'd recommend:

7 light armor, 66% mp 33% hp, dunmer, dk, mp regen as necessary--filled with power enchants.

Destro: DPS Spiked Armor helps VS melee, which in a group setting should be all the self-buffing you need to overcome light armor--because you can rely on your team to help peel/heal for you since you're DPS. With this bar you see you have a lot more options for damage 

Weakness to Elements (Used prior to Fiery, so that the +weapon damage from next hit on fiery grip is applied, +it has a higher range so you'll cast it first anyway usually.)

Fiery Grip

Searing Strike

Fiery Breath - OR - Lava Whip, depending on if you want to have an AOE or if you want to have a spammable single-target. I would definitely recommend taking Lava Whip, but I think that you would disagree and take Fiery Breath even though in your initial bar #1 it was only single-target.

Spiked Armor

*DK Standard - Good DPS

Resto: Group Support

Petrify

Molten Weapons - Or, take a spammable damage (either force Shock or I'd recommend Lava Whip if it's not on your bar#1. Having a spammable damage button is very important in my opinion. The spammable damage will actually do more damage here on the Resto Bar than Destro because of the +% dmg based on health--assuming you don't have time to set up a white hit or weakness of elements first, so it might be better to take Lava Whip on this bar, meaning that Fiery Breath was probably the right choice for Bar#1.)

Obsidian Shield

Regeneration

Blessing of Protection (between obsidian shield/regeneration it's probably enough to help out when time's needed

*Ancestral Guardian - Not only helps you, but helps the whole group a lot by tanking something.

So, you can see that your bar#1 is almost identical to the one I'd recommend. Your bar#2 though is entirely self-serving, which might be good to increase your own survival but the healer's going to need support sometimes too.

Here's my recommendation cleaned up:

Dunmer DK Light Destro/Resto

Bar 1 - Destro

Weakness to Elements

Fiery Grip

Searing Strike

Fiery Breath  EDIT: Force Shock

Spiked Armor

*DK Standard

Bar 2 - Resto

Petrify

Obsidian Shield

Regeneration

Molten Weapons

Lava Whip EDIT: Fiery Breath

*Ancestral Guardian

Bar #1 you just take an AOE over Petrify, Bar #2 you just take different defensives that I believe are more beneficial for your goals (group pve) and then you have the capacity to do huge burst damage that doesn't require setup.

Depending on if it stays on between swaps, you should have plenty of MP/Regen that you could keep the bonuses on bar#2 up while also sustaining DPS with bar#1, and then even switching to bar#2 just for bursting power even after setting up weakness with bar#1.

I believe these small changes would be greatly beneficial. You don't need to take this advice, because your bars are fine--but I hope you can see where I'm coming from--because I truly believe that these bars are more focused as well as more beneficial for your desired outcome - Group PVE.

EDIT: Force Shock might be nice to have on bar#1 because you won't always want to pull the target to you, and it's 28m range so sometimes it might be really nice to have. Maybe put Force Shock instead of Fiery Breath and then put Fiery Breath instead of Lave Whip. I think this would be a better choice, not only is it ranged but it's a good spammable MP dump on your DPS bar that's easy to use.

Hmm, after making that change I actually really like this build..it's pretty damn sexy. XD

As for race i think you should look at all three factions... (i said this before)

unless or are you dead set that you and your friends will automatically pick the one faction which have the "best" healer racials (and in this case might have the "worst" tank racials) ?

 

Your racial options would be:

Altmer, Breton and Dark Elf (or Argonian).

 

As for weapon you should level up restoration staff (and another weapon; maybe something with stamina driven skills to save your magicka for heals--- such as Bow; or something that make you a tougher opponent when you get someone jumping you so you survive long enough for the party to protect you--- such as 1h and shield; or maybe an offensive stamina option that you can use to kill stuff with when you don't have a party--- such as two hand or dual wield; or maybe an offensive magicka alternative since you will already have good magicka regeneration and a big magicka pool--- such as destruction staff).

 

As for start class. All four are viable.

 

Templars do give you more healing options (templar are mostly close range pbaoe effects which require that you are up in the middle of things). It give you alternative ways of healing (restoration staff is mostly stand at range and heal like a "traditional" healer). But if you mostly plan on standing far away to heal then it doesn't really matter (actually, sorcerer might be a better option for that kind of healer). Night blade healers might be really cool in pvp (having access to instant invisibility and all). Dragon knights have very solid buff lines which are good for a support class like a healer... You will be an excellent healer without any active class skills at all.

Aye, this kind of broad spectrum is probably what he was asking about huh? XD Nice post-- you should make a "The Healing Thread" and post this as OP.

I'd say Argonian is definitely better then Dunmer for healing, but that's debatable. You should expand this a bit more about armor choice and 2nd weapon and such as well if you're going to make a thread for it. I really really like your post.

Obviously i can't let it go. I would like to try something like maximising magica and fire dps in PVE . 

What u think about this build ( 5 light and 2 Heavy ; point distribution: 25M;15H and 9 stam; enchants will be there for fine tuning) : 

 

Destro

 

Fiery reach

Weakness to elements

Searing strike

Petrify

Spiked armor

Magma armor

 

Destro

 

Obsidian shield

Fiery breath

Dragon blood

Ash cloud

Inhale

Meteor / Dragon standard 

 

I would also consider ( trapping webs ( single ), inner fire, inferno ( multi target), bone shield , immovable, if i really need gap closer then ill take crit charge from two hander ) 

I had few trade offs coz of positioning on hotbars ( mostly coz of passives): 1) wanted to have as soon as possible ultimate and some stamina back  (petrify and obsidian shield), health regeneration ( blood and spiked); Wanted to have some defences on both loadouts ; Petrify is there to give me option not to switch to aoe bar ( if i have two mobs on me ); ended up with splitting bars on aoe and single ( if that works will mostly depend on switch mechanics) .

Guys what do u think  ?  

One bar is good against single-target melee, the other bar is supposed to be good for AOE..tanking almost? But your abilities are all short-ranged so you'd be tanking melee-only really and since you're in light armor this is a very bad idea. Also, you don't have anything that costs stamina--so why do you want to waste 9 points into stamina?

What are the goals of your two bars? Please be specific, tell us what you want each of your bars to specifically accomplish.

(What make you think they don't configure their hotbar for pvp when they enter the pvp zone before you get to them...)

I'm sure most will, but I think a lot of people will switch back to a pve spec right before killing an npc enemy--prime killing time! ^.^

Thanks Musclemagic and irons that's some nice info.I'm thinking I want to be a main healer in dungeons but also be able to deal damage when playing solo (or in dungeons if I want a break from healing ), I figured Altmer would be best because of the magicka regen for healing and the destruction bonuses for damage dealing.I'm not looking for an easy option for healing by just spamming a single spell, I like to work for the result otherwise it gets boring (no healbotz here lol)Where is your FB page?

If you maximize your healing abilities then it gives you more room to DPS at the same time though, no need to slow down--you can always just go faster if you have a better build because there's so many things you can do you'll never feel like it's easy, hopefully you'll just be able to do more on the side if you're able to heal easier.

www.facebook.com/musclemagicps4

I've been thinking a lot about sorce healing, and I think I might make my main a sorce healer instead of a templar. I've been dead-set on templar since the day they released the classes...but now I'm pretty sure I want to be a sorc, but I'm not sure yet. I haven't been able to make as good of a healing build with sorce as templar.

btw, I plan on being a pvp healer but with the ability to do a lot of damage as well--so we have similar goals.

I'm sorry I just wanted to put out that you can't compare +9% reg with 3% less magicka cost because we don't have the numbers to actually know what's better.When you wrote it looked like a fact to me not an opinion.

Nothing I say is a fact, haha, I guess I'm a hard agnostic in all walks of life. XD I am wondering what the classical logical mistake was though? I know all the main logical fallacies and I don't think any apply.

None of this says that the DPS of a heavy armor Templer will be best. It just says that it will be one of the strongest heavy armor builds with which I agree.

There's more synergy with heavy while using 2h/dw/s&s to do damage..meaning that +weapon damage and stamina is key for DPS. I think that Templar has the most stamina, and that this will be the most important thing for stamina based damage attacks.

I have not been in beta yet , but what  everyones says each Ultimate is its own spell ; so I would think you could put the same

Ultimate on each task bar even if you dont have the same weapon type.

Yeah, the quake-con video shows that that's true.

I was mostly asking about the weapons. If you have the same weapon for both bars, if you would be able to also use different ultimates on those two bars was a side question--the answer's probably yes, but I've still never seen someone using two different ultimates at all so it's just something I think about a lot.

You compare apples with oranges a classical logical mistake. We can't actually say what's better.

But both races should be fairly good healers.

Please, explain the "classic logical mistake" that I made.... There's not a classical logical fallacy made. The only thing that's going on here are presumptions about Spellcharge that I made, that you apparently disagree with.

I feel that 9% extra regen per second will be better than 3% cost of each spell. You're right that it is just my opinion. I don't have any idea what "Increase Magicka Recovery in Combat by 9%" actually means when it's applied-- if it's +9% to total mp regen then for a healer (who's going to be stacking a lot of mp regen) it's probably going to be higher than Breton's 3% reduction of each spell cost.

You're right that it isn't a FACT, but you don't need to go full-retard about one statement when it's just an opinion that doesn't even matter. They will both be good healers...and they're separate alliances anyway, so there's even less of a point in comparing their details.

Breton's better than Altmer all-round if you're not using elemental damage.

Yeah, fuck it, Breton's better anyway. I actually believe that every caster should be a breton unless you're doing a fire-DK build...then you should be Dunmer, or a Shock Sorce should be Altmer. Other than that, all players planning on being MP based should play Breton.

BUT-- Aldmeri will have the highest amount of medium armor physical DMG characters...so maybe you'd want to be in Aldmeri anyway, so you don't get ass-raped by grand elf's 2H.

Muscle,

 

Thanks for advice. I am not convinced coz i believe in numbers. Probably we can't have math completed due to lack of info. I hear your logic about splitting resources but even if it is only relevant factor - split of resources is something u do all the time even in hard core cookie build so it means that sometimes is better to split then to stay in one . Besides that, game which is having unique combat system for active defences can't marginalise offence which are those defending. In short words - white hits (normal and power attack )must stand for something. If white hits are significant damage dealers then spells are filling white hit gaps .-). Perhaps i am wrong coz i have on my mind completely different combat mechanics then it will be the case. That combat mechanics ( in my mind ) is actually reason why i want to use 2 hotbars as one so i can fill swap hotbar gap with white hit . 

Still i think that i have to suck it up for now and check all options we have in the game. After all i will not play till release of the game because of personal reasons :-) 

Watching any gameplay video, you'll see that "white" (normal hits) damage is not a big source of damage in comparison to spell damage. But, the white numbers are sustainable in the videos I've seen and usually do add up to about 50% of the long-term damage. So, you could focus on white damage if you'd like. But, if you want to maximize dps then you're already synergizing a lot for that fire damage, you might as well always keep the fire destro staff on when you're DPSing because it'll be your best option, and spell power will be a much better option for you than weapon damage in that case as well.

I don't think you'd be able to get white hits during the time you're swapping weapons anyway. I guess we'll see, I do really like that idea.

While I don't agree with musclemagic that a Staff and a melee weapon together doesn't work.

I agree with him that with the changes now you either should focus on physical dmg or magic dmg.

^ Irons said what I was going to say. It's not a problem to split resources, it's a problem that the damage and such is split.

Has your current build idea updated recently? If you could post a build-plan of your current ideas then I could pinpoint my problem with it easier.

Do you mind to explain why you think that way?

 

 

There have been quite a few chances to abilities and mechanics that's why older builds are no longer as good as they used to be.

 

In the latest video we say that they character sheet had spell damage and weapon dmg seperate while before there was just 1 attribute for both (power).

Yeah, all the updates have made it clearer as to how they're balancing everything. I for one really like these updates, I had a feeling it would be something like this but couldn't envision it.

I think that heavy armor who's DPS will be best as a 2H templar. Sure, NB get's Haste and Sorce gets Surge, but I think that the increase in healing received goes to waste if you're not a templar. The 4% increased weapon damage is nice. The spell protection and increase blocking is nice as well. On top of this, I think the best ability is Restoring Aura-- high amount of health and stamina regen is exactly what you'll want for heavy armor 2H builds with high mRes. Sun Shield is amazing too, because you don't need the MP regeneration as much with 2H as focus.

A DK is better for tanking and survival, for sure, but if you want to focus DPS while wearing heavy I think templar is the best choice. Cleansing Ritual's always nice to have when you're survival-ish.

A NB would be best choice for weapon damage, but they can't deal as well with resources so they're better in medium armor, also for imp sneak.... Just my opinion anyway.

It's all just theory, so I'm not going to insist that I'm right or anything, I'm not certain of my own build and I won't be until I play the game, but it's a fun thing to exercise the brain .

 

The way I look at it is by contemplating extremes:

 

1) Light armor + destro staff -> best magic damage, best resists, weakest armor

2) Medium armor + dw/2h/bow -> best physical damage, worst resists, average armor, good mobility and reactive defense + stealth

3) Heavy armor + 1h and shield -> low damage, best armor and good resists (not sure if shield resistances can make up for the difference in bonuses from light armor, any sort of an artifact shield can be a gamechanger here) + very efficient block

 

It's not so much rock paper scissors, as it's 1 and 2 being deadly towards each other, neither is really deadly towards 3, but then 3 isn't that much deadly towards 1 or 2 either.

 

Anything that isn't 1, 2 or 3 is effectively a hybrid, so light armor + dual wield doesn't have the best magic damage nor the best physical damage  but averages somewhere between them, which doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Considering that I'm only using DW because of the passives and I don't have any abilities that cost stam, I wouldn't really consider it a hybrid still--even if the physical damage from DW is a major source of damage on light armor. It really is focusing on one damage type. The weapon damage from Destro wouldn't benefit from +spell power anyway I don't think??? Maybe, I didn't really think of that?

It's going to be hard to tell what works best for killing what until we see how long fights last, and how much stamina the fighting mechanics will take up. Once we know those two things we'll know how well tanks could do as well as how well a pure-magicka class can do (that's not sorce).

It's my opinion that fights will not last very long if someone has a build advantage over someone else... be it that they have no mitigation or cc against a melee, or w/e, I think that the typical caster will die to the typical melee within just 4-5 seconds max of attack time....

I can't really explain why I believe it will be so short in this situation (and vice a verse if a mage gets jump on a medium armor user who's not enchanted for mRes.) but I do believe that it will be this short.

I think that killing a tank, on the other hand, who's enchanted for mRes will be extremely difficult for any medium armor user. I think it will be nearly impossible. They don't have the -target mRes and they won't hit very hard physically on all that armor. I believe that there's no way for a medium armor user to kill a heavy armor user at all unless the heavy armor user has a retarded bar with no survival at all.

I have no basis for these ideas though.