Musclemagic

I'm reposting this from DK thread to Templar thread. 5 light 2 heavy(chest+legs) breton, Resto/Destro, 66%HP(max) & 33%MP from leveling and then MP Regen enchants as necessary and then fill the rest with Spell Power. Resto- -Ceremony -Rune Focus -Immovable -Purge -Siege Shield *Barrier Destro- Rapid Maneuver Immovable Magelight Restoring Aura Solar Flare *Meteor Bar#1 is just for spamming, Rushed Ceremony x 3 targets is actually the best healing/mana ratio in the game it looks like--but Power might end up being divided between the 3 targets, so we'll have to see about that morph later after testing. Rune Focus for the area healing bonus (+30% healing to those in area) and the self-protection. Immovable for the self protection and anti-CC. Purge for daedric curses and such, siege shield is just awesome, and then barrier supplements this build perfect as well--which is amazing because those 3 things also give +10% MP regen each (unless ultimates don't count as an "ability slotted", in which case 20% is still nice and I'd still use Barrier.) With Maneuver + Immovable + Restoring Aura + Magelight, my group and I will be able to quickly/easily get places on foot. I'll definitely need to activate Restoring Aura all the time in order to keep immovable and maneuver up with any sprinting time left, if any sprinting time's available even then. Solar Flare into a Meteor combo is hopefully all the DPS I'll need to do every once in a while. Obviously, other then that I'll have Bar#1 active while in combat.

It depends on what kind of destro staff it is- fire, shock, or cold. I think fire/burning is extra damage (burning applied from weapons with fire enchantment--but in this case it's fire staff regular), shock/concussion is a momentary incapacitate (short duration), and cold/chilled is probably a snare between 40% and 60% for around 5-6 seconds is my guess, based on other spells. I think it has to be more than 40 because tri-focus rank 2 is already a 40% slow..from before anyway..now it's rank 1/2 @ 35% slow but I doubt it would go up double--if at all--so probably just 35% with extended duration, but the duration couldn't double or it'd be too long as well so I believe that it will go up to 40% like it was before (like most the full-rank passives are going back to how they were before when maxed out) and have a slightly longer timer of just 4 seconds like before... And, that's just from a heavy attack snaring the target...so I think Impulse will definitely be over 40% and over 4s duration. Again, guessing around 50-60% and 5-6 seconds to fit with similar spells, it might be AOE but it's short ranged. I agree that it's a bad spell unless maybe if you're a fire-destroy DK who wants a ton of AOE damage could incorporate this extra burning DOT.. but for PVP, I guess the concussion could be good (especially if it's a silence--which would be cool) but something like Bolt Escape is a much better thing for actual PBAOE+evacuation if you're a typical caster... meh. Too early to guess all this though.

Aahh!! Cool, I'm glad to hear this! I was worried you were going to try to be less of a hindrance, BAHAHA! It sucks you're going to be on PC man, it would be fun to play together. Tank/Heal carry right here.

Because we don't know the effects (impulse) or the radius (including Daedric Curse) on these abilities, it's not worth talking about them yet probably. - At least in terms of numbers. Buildcrafting with them is still awesome, lol, I think caltrops will work very similarly to Daedric Mines. That Volatile Familiar idea is pretty epic though, haha, it's like a fire-golem in D2 where you just summon it from town and then when a melee class kills it the explosion would kill them. lmao

Yeah, taking regen instead of power just to do utility spells is what all tanks should be doing after they have enough resistances and such. If you build your character with low health though, you'll suffer from being killed faster even if you have the ability to do more things to mess with people--or even to heal yourself--I don't think anything justifies taking away HP from your character's innate build if you plan on PvPing. 66% HP purebreads, in all builds, FTW. XD --Bold statement, but I can only see a few exceptions to this for PvP.

I agree, they will win 1v1 fights pretty much every time IMO--or at least not die in them--but they will be useless if played incorrectly (as in, trying to actually achieve a goal other than just fucking with people. The ones who try to DPS and such instead of holding/supporting/etc) in group-battles. I'm just teasing you irons, I know you're going to DPS-tank and I think it's worth trying to do, I just don't know how well it will do in groups.

Food for thread: I believe that Daggerfall Convention's the best alliance by a huge amount. Not only do they not have a mountain or large stream to navigate that could come as a disadvantage to someone coming into Cyrodiil like Aldmeri or Ebonheart do..Daggerfall just has a pretty open field-ish area. And just think about their racials for a moment-- Orc - Best tanky tank Redguard - Best stam based DPS, even above Khajiit IMO with the change from Stam to HP regen on Khajiit. Breton - Best casters unless you want shock damage on a sorce or something--which is still only better in PVE because of the resistance passive. So, that's my opinion. What do you guys think is the best alliance and why?

Nobody other than you said it would be like that, so you have the entirely wrong idea. You're the only person who's actually trying to compare this to DAOC. Although I do think that if they're stacked right, that 3*X group pattern could put out enough DPS to kill a large amount of people, I don't think it's likely that they'd actually stop a zerg..even at a choke point, the way you can get out of CC in ESO means that it's highly unlikely to succeed at stopping a zerge with lower numbers. Also, just because I say that I reckon it'll work like this, doesn't mean that I myself even believe that it's true. If you knew me, you'd realize that I am a soft-agnostic with everything, and I don't believe in facts very easily. It's pure speculation, and I don't appreciate being made fun of just for believing it to be one way or another. I think that Molten Weapon or Obsidian Shield or another big buff like that will be able to affect all the targets in the area, but if they have it active already from another DK or w/e then it will only refresh the buff rather than stack on top of it. With that in mind, these buffs like Molten Weapon are meant to be active on the whole group for a very long time, so they obviously want to make it a communal buff like that--given that it takes 1/5 of your skill choices on any given bar to just take a group-buff like that, similar to Restoring Aura. It's entirely sensible that it will effect everybody. On the other hand, with passives like +4% stamina when one of your Earth abilities targets another player, will only work on 1 player--just like a Templar casting spells won't get 4*4% when they cast Piercing Strikes, it will only going to work once per cast... Although, DKs have very little ways to get resources back, so if it does stack and you can cast Molten Weapons on 10 different people, gg you just recovered a total of 5 resources (-35mp+40st).. I think DKs need this kind of resource rebate, and it makes sense that it's stamina. But, having said all this, I actually believe that all buffs could be capped at 4 players--and all damage will be uncapped because it's already very limited. 5m might as well be a single-target spell. Drain Power, Inhale, and Fiery Breath are the biggest AOE DPS spells out there, but they're point-blank. It's too early to say one way or another.. I keep going back and forth now, we'll just have to wait and find out I guess. I do believe it'll ALL be uncapped because things seem pretty balanced already, and even though a few OP things will be revealed--there'll be a counter found (or patched) soon enough. All this is irrelevant until we actually know how big groups like this will work, for now can we please further discuss team compositions--because that helps us decide character creation, which is the first thing we're all still working on.

Thank you! I love talking about this stuff, and even though you're not going to play as another class--I'd be really interested to hear your builds on them sometime if you ever make one!

The AOE's are very small in this game, and when there's a certain number of targets affected it specifies. I reckon it's a true AOE and not limited by # of targets. That wouldn't be very ES-ish.

A bit late to the party? You went to the wrong house!

Hey, sorry I was AFK in the chat. Let's just say calculate the costs before calculating the estimated damage: Searing Strike = 18 mp every 10 seconds. Fiery Breath = 35 mp every 6 seconds, but you'll only use this on multi-mobs because Lava Whip is better extra-attack for single-target than Fiery Breath is--all the time--so exclude for now, we'll just calculate the single-target costs. Weakness to Elements = 35 mp every 15 seconds. Spiked Armor = 42 MP every 17 seconds. Lava Whip = The remaining MP as often as necessary, so calculated afterwards. 42 mp every 17 seconds, 18 mp every 10 seconds, 35 mp every 15 seconds. 42/17 + 18/10 + 35/15 = 6.6 MP/S. Include Evocation: 6.6 - (6.6 x .21) = 5.2 Base mana = 106 + 3.2 MP/S. + Recover = 106 + (3.2*1.28) = 4 MP/S regen. Enchantments and set-bonuses will increase the MP you have access to, but we don't know by how much so let's not try to factor that in yet. It's noble of you to try to calculate DPS but I think it's much to early for that as well. Let's take your number though, that it will take about 20 seconds to kill someone in PVP (which I think is much too long, but I have no information to support that claim). If a fight lasts for 20 seconds you'll have spent (18+35+42=) (95-95x.21=) 75 mana for the first 10 seconds and then after those 10 seconds you'll need to spend another (18-18*.21=)14 --which you'll have gained (4 MP/S x 10 =) 40 mana, add this to the (106-75=) 31 mana you already have for 71 after 10 seconds--you could cast a Lava Whip for (35-35*.21=) 28 MP, bringing you down to (71-28=) 43 mana, meaning that you have plenty of mana to re-cast Weakness to Elements for (35*.21+35=) 28 mp 5 second later, and you'll have gained another 20 MP so you'll only lose (28-20=) 8 MP in that time bringing you down from 43 to 35. At this point, you won't get much duration (3 seconds) out of Spiked Armor so a Lava Whip is a much better choice if the fight's close to ending. Your total damage of this 20 seconds was 2x searing for 52, lava whip 2x for 38, for 90 damage. Add crit, add spell power, add the + fire dmg and everything else, then add the targets mitigation and you'll come back at around 90 damage still. Meaning that you only need 10 damage from your fire weapon to kill your target. Of course, this is a long ass time because of their HP recovery will be massive and they will be using some defensive abilities as well, so they're likely to be able to gain this life back. But, I figure that about 50% of sustained DPS will be from white hits, meaning that you're doing 180 damage in 20 seconds. If they are recovering 4.5% per second, 150% the norm, and they start with 100 health, then within 20 seconds you'll have had to do (100 x .045 = 4.5 x 20 = 90 + 100 = 190 effective HP in a 20 second fight.) and it's about even, making the tank hard to kill. The thing is that their damage is probably low enough that they can't kill you either, and all things are equal. But, pretend that you do this instead: 28 mp for Weakness, 12 mp for Searing, and then use the rest for Lava Whips. That's 40 initial mp and then using 28 mp whenever you can, you'll have 66 mp to start with and within 10 seconds you'll have gained 40 mana meaning you'll have 106 mp for Lava Whips within 10 seconds. 106/28mp = 3.8, so almost 4--but not quite Lava Whips. Let's calculate that damage: 26 + 19x3 = 57 x 1.4 = 79.8, ~8 DPS. Add in ~80 damage from white attacks and you're at 16 DPS. If the fight lasts 10 seconds then 160 damage > (100x.045 = 4.5 x 10 = 45+100 =) 145 HP in 10 seconds. Meaning you just killed that tank. This is why you want to have burst damage, and you can't just rely on sustained DPS and playing defensively as a DPS. The tank WANTS the fight to last a long time. The more things you put on the bar for defense, the better the tank kills you, because that's exactly what they want you to do. The point of all those numbers right now (since we can't know anything for certain) is that there are ways to overcome things even if they look too difficult at first. A nightblade can put out huge bursts, but lower sustained damage than your build. So it's not really whether you have high DPS or not in PVP, it depends on a ton of things. In a group, however, which is where you'll be--hidden from those NBs, in your dungeon, you'll have to rely on group for things. You won't need to use Spiked Armor all the time, especially when fighting a tank with high HP regen or something. You won't need to use Fiery Breath too often probably, only in certain circumstances. In these circumstances, you'll most definitely want Spiked Armor active--but you won't want to use searing strike or weakness, so you'll have plenty of MP to use Fiery Breath every 6 seconds on multi-targets. Your numbers were all right, it looked like, but it's too early to say the higher-up things because we don't know how much set-bonuses will affect things like MP and such. I'm glad to have a number cruncher around, it'll be fun to run things by you later when we have solid numbers on higher levels and enchantments and everything. ^.^ EDIT: The sad fact is, that NB's specced right will still be able to out DPS in both burst and sustained up-close damage. Sorces will outdue your AOE, and they are even at range. Templars will outdue your support. DKs will outdue your survival*damage overall when they're specced for survival. This build's only good if you also take inferno and go all-out dmg on your Destro-Bar... but then, yes, you will die very easily. It's sad, very sad, but your best bet as a DK is tanking and there's no way around it if you truly want to min/max. DKs have to use ST and MP evenly in their bar, or they'll be even more gimped for resources, and so a medium armor build might work--but that doesn't work very well with their DPS actives, so you won't benefit as much as a NB in medium. You're doomed to a S&S+All Heavy build, and if you don't like it for min/max then you should play a NB if you like being in the thick of things or a Sorce if you want to be on the outskirts. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. Being a Dunmer is still your best choice by quite a lot, the extra fire damage will help buffer your weakish DPS as a tank and the +6% stam and +6% mp is perfect for S&S in heavy.. but the damage isn't as important as a tank, so still a redguard or orc is better for PVE DK tank. EDIT #2: I actually think that this fire DPS will be massive because each +Power will have a lot of +dmg %'s from all the synergy where other classes don't have so much. It turns into MP vs Power, where other classes have more MP and you have more DMG amplifiers with this build. This is why you need to go as many points into MP as you can, you have the capability to do a huge amount of damage, it's worth more than points into HP (which you'll still have a solid 33% into, since you're not using St. in this build.)

Please don't worry about things like this, the person is not a child and the person obviously knows that it's a new/different game. I don't know why you're comparing DAOC to ESO for no reason. I believe they were simply stating that they enjoy group PVP. It's true that we don't know how many people will be within a certain radius that spells can affect, or how many people we can typically expect to find at a keep (whether it's 3, 10, 40, or 200, we have no real idea.) But we do know how the spells will generally be like and their basic functions so this thread's not completely irrelevant. But, discussing OW in DAOC..is pretty irrelevant, please keep that to PMs if interested. Ah, yeah, I think I've been told how to a few times..but I can never remember. XD Thanks though for fixing it

Dear Mod, Please change thread name to Cyrodiil PVP Theory or simply World PVP Theory. I do not know how to do it, lol. Love, Muscles

[*] [*] I received this message on facebook, and I think it's a great way to kick off a Cyrodiil Theory thread: From: ANONYMOUS (unless they want to be known.) About ESO: My guild (PC by the way, so no fear that you'll meet us on the battlefield ;P) is planning to run a "small" group of dedicated players (8-10 players) in cyrodiil. Our goal is to kill larger groups of enemies, possibly also the zerg (if they raid a keep, for example, and are stacked cluelessly infront of a keep's door). We want to kill a lot of players in AvA and farm them alliance points. We're not into raiding keeps that much, we want to be a gank group. We have all played DAoC, that's where we come from, if you wonder why we have that mentality. Now I did play Beta, but didn't have that much time so I don't really know all the specifics. I thought about running a group setup something like: 3x Templar Healers, 1 Dragonknight, 3 Sorcerers for AoE Damage and the rest Nightblades or more Dragonknights. I'm not sure though which abilities everyone should use to make this work. Do you have any suggestions which group setup to use if we want to be a gank group in Cyrodiil that kills a lot of players? By the way I really like your page and your comments, it's appreciated a lot! [*]about an hour agoMusclemagic[*] I think 8-10 of well coordinated people is going to due well with a lot of AOE, anything over 3 targets the AOE damage overwhelms both AOE healing and single-target damage by a pretty big amount. I've done a lot of thinking about groups of all sizes, but right now there's not enough information about how buffs/debuffs will stack to really get a good idea of what combinations will work the best. If "taunts" make it so targets can only face toward the one opponent in this game, or if there's any little thing like that -- it could change everything about group compositions..so it's hard to say right now. If you're really interested, message me once beta's out and I'll have a lot better ideas about group comps! ^.^ I'm glad you like my FB page, I do most my theorycrafting on ElderSouls.com though--and there's about 4 other great guys on there as well so it's worth checking out. [*]about an hour agoMusclemagic[*] do* not due. Your combination looks pretty solid at this point, until we know all the details that combination will probably be one of the strongest. I might suggest going more DKs, no NBs. ~4 temps 3 dk 3 sorc would be a seemingly good ratio... [*]about an hour agoMusclemagic[*] Temps would all need Rushed Ceremony because I do not believe that dmg absorbs will stack and the healing ritual would be too far from the DKs who will be taking most the damage. The Temps will definitely all want Eclipse as well, with the health-orb morph. One of them should take Restoring Aura, 2 of them should take Purge (Not Cleansing Ritual, because Purge gives more MP regen) All templars should take Rune Focus for the mitigation and the aoe+healing for the sorce's. You should pair up 1 temp with 1 sorce in the back--and keep them spread out. Have the 1 extra, odd, temp up in front with the dks so there's a main-target--have him take a few heavy pieces and keep Immovable and Rune Focus up at all times and be 66% (max) into HP from leveling with high resistance enchants. [*]about an hour agoMusclemagic[*] It's okay if the DKs get spread out a bit, as long as 1 DK is in Grip-range of each of the sorce/temp combos, and all 3 DKs are within the Rushed Ceremony range. (22m per group, 28m range total for dk's/temps.) 2 DKs should take Dark Talons, 1 should take Ash Cloud (the one in medium armor should take Ash Cloud, if there's one in medium.) A few good DPS DKs will be in light armor with a Destro Staff--especially if you're in the alliance with Dunmer.. Probably only worth taking them for this setup if they're very VERY good at the game, otherwise he'll just get fucked up. [*]about an hour agoMusclemagic[*] And, of course you want at least 1 DK with obsidian shield, the one in medium should have spiked armor. [*]There should be at least 1 person with magelight, 1 with rapid maneuver, 1-2 with siege shield, and you all should have max-speed horses (rather than carrying or tanking)- of course. [*]about an hour agoMusclemagic[*] For the sorce's they should ALL have Mage's Fury, Lightning Splash, Daedric Curse, Daedric Mines, and Lightning Form. Lightning Form is the best mitigation in the game, so it's hopefully all that they need for ~6 seconds when a few people are past the DKs. There should always be Daedric Mines set up between the DKs and the Templars/Sorces--that 22m gap should be full of them, especially on the periphery. And then curses, furies, and splashes all around--splashes in the dark talons... Hmm, okay, I change what I said earlier, 1 person should have Dark Talons and be paired with the templar--the other 2 DK should both have Ash Cloud. The one DK with Dark Talons will be the Kill-targets DK, the Sorce's will drop their Splashes around that guy--and as needed, of course, but mostly around that guy if he can keep a lot around him. [*]about an hour agoMusclemagic[*] The sorces should be doing a lot of heavy attacks, the DKs should be doing a lot of blocking-- to get targets off balance, and then the sorces attacks will knock them down. [*]If I didn't mention Molten Weapons, I just forgot, but 1 DK MUST have molten weapons, probably the one who's not in medium but isn't the one with dark talons. [*]about an hour agoMusclemagic[*] DKs- 2 in heavy, 1 main. 1 in medium. Fiery Grip 3x Inhale 2x/Defensive Posture-main) Dark Talons (Main)/Ash Cloud/Defensive Posture(heavy#2) Spiked Armor 2x (Main and Medium)/Molten Weapons Obsidian Shield/Low Slash(main)/Defensive Poster(Medium armor) I'm not giving Inhale to the main tank because he'll have the PB Templar with him. Hopefully a lot of the melee will try to go to that Templar, in which case they'll get fucked up fast by Talon/Splashes. [*]about an hour agoMusclemagic[*] It'll be hard to kill a lot of well organized caster-only groups, but as long as you can get within 22 meters of them (your DKs need the +range morph on grip because the +40% dmg only applies to next single weapon swing and isn't worth it for a group where they're not the DPS in this case.) But anyway, rapid maneuver will get your medium-armor guy within range pretty fast (sprint speed as well) and then he an pull one back, and you can just chain pull them back to the group and kill them one target at a time. The way your group would have to counter that happening to them is just by playing the field well--being aware of other dks and having the templars ready to push to the 28m range for heals. Having 1 NB wouldn't be a bad idea if they have Agony with Dmg-Continues morph and Cripple, ticking for +Ult, and using the Assn's Blade morph for +Ult... because if they can use a lot of Consuming Darkness ultimates and you guys all "Slip Away-synergy" and travel like that up to casters, it would solve a lot of problems. You guys could always stealth but you'd run out of Stam before you could get there. Of course the Medium Armor DK could always solo-stealth a bit further and then the chain-pull could occur and whack away at groups right away by those means.. [*]3 minutes agoMusclemagic[*] This, at least, is what I plan on doing for my guild. It can be an infinitely large or small group (3sum), the plan still works. Keep it as 1 up front and 2 in back, that way they won't be aoe'd, and then spread out those groups of 3, but always keep groups of 3 and a templar or two lurking in the front if there's a big enough group to allow it. It's perfect formation to allow for a huge amount of people without being able to be AOE'd down... and then, yeah, you get it. It'll be awesome. Haha [*]about a minute agoMusclemagic[*] The only issue is finding enough templars for the back, and then some who are willing to take S&S and a couple heavy pieces-- and PB spells and such. XD omg I can't wait for this game.. So, yeah, that's my current plan..you sneaky sneaks are going to steal it! MY PRECIOUS!... I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions and plans though as well! So gimme gimme gimme some theory!? ^.^

Areodon, I was keeping Fiery Grip because you initially had it, but irons is spot on--you won't need it, or even want it, in a dungeon. The +40% damage to next white hit isn't a big increase in overall damage at all, so that shouldn't be the reason you take it. irons recommendations are perfect, I'd personally take Spiked Armor or Ash Cloud on bar#1 instead of Obsidian Shield because it protects you in the ways you need protection and also does DPS (spiked)--and you're the DPS. Spiked also gives you +12% healing received at all times it's up, which is huge and helps the healer and tank a lot.. but Ash Cloud helps the tank more, so it's a toss up in my opinion between those two. Obsidian Shield on bar#2 might take longer to cast off, but I see bar#2 as a passive bar--not an active thing where you'd be switching to it in combat to actually try to heal a single target or anything like that--you'd just be buffing your group. Open with Petrify on #2 (your Fiery Breath won't break it..as long as you don't aim your cone at the Petrified target. ) Before a heavy-aoe damage incoming, switch to #2 and throw down obsidian and regeneration before switching bar to your bar, you're not trying to heal--you're just trying to create a buffer for the healer/tank in some (rare-ish) situations. And, keeping Molten Weapons up from #2 at all times is of course a good idea. As well as Force-Siphon for hard single-targets like bosses or mini bosses. Bar#2's just a passive support bar that helps both you and your group, mostly your group as a whole, so that everything just goes smoother--your bar#1's strictly DPS because that is your role. I'd also change irons suggestion of inferno to Force Shock or Lava Whip because without a gap closer, having at least 1 ranged attack other than your white hits will be very nice to have---and also the fact that it's spammable means a LOT when single-target burst is needed. The interrupt from Force Shock is also quite nice to just have around. Here's the bars I'd recommend without Fiery Grip: Destro- Weakness to Elements Force Shock/Lava Whip Searing Strike Fiery Breath Spiked Armor Resto- Petrify Molten Weapons Force Siphon Obsidian Shield Regeneration Ahh, now I see why you want two bars. You are wrong though, you will definitely be able to keep up Spiked Armor, the dots on Searing Strike and Fiery Breath up, and keep Weakness of Elements up on one target without having to wait for MP. The other abilities are on a need-to-use basis...which is also why they're on a second bar. Quit talking about Stamina though, you don't use it and you won't need much of it in PVE so don't worry about it. You should spec a lot into MP simply because you're in a group that has your back. You should have theirs by being able to do a lot of damage, as your DPS role is supposed to do. The extra MP = a lot more Force Shocks (you could go Lava Whip if you don't mind the range, it's a lot more damage) on Single Targets or Fiery Breath spams into AOE. EDIT: Bone Shield would be a good alternative to Spiked Armor, because you get about the same melee-mitigation personally, but your group can activate it to help themselves out by a HUGE amount if necessary. But, it's slightly less mitigation and since you're a melee-ranged clothy, you'll want the +12% healing as well..you're going to need it, because once you start getting bursted down--every second is life or death for a melee-ranged-clothy. Excitement!! This build's gotten even stronger thanks to irons inputs. I really really like it!

You'd need to change enchantments between bow and destro use, especially if you plan on using many stamina attacks from it. Of course it won't be devastating, you'll just do a little bit less. There's going to be so many people with bows though, haha, that's the only reason why I'm not making a bow class. EDIT: Argonian VS Dunmer, you either get +6% magicka or you get +disease/poison resistances and +7% healing taken. +7% healing taken and +some mitigation to me seems better than 6% magicka because in PVP the healer's going to be targeted a LOT. And, 6% is a lot but not enough to get me hard. Sadly, the +15% resto staff experience is worthless, your weapon/armor skills will level fast or slow based on your character level anyway..leveling them faster doesn't really do anything anyway...I mean, sure it'll help a bit--to unlock higher-up skills faster..but because you don't need to use skills, you just need to have the weapon equipped to level up weapons/armors, it's not like it takes up any of your time to level them. At least that's my opinion on those +item XP racials..that they're not even worth looking at when considering a character.

You can't change instantly to this extent though. It's going to make dungeons really easy after you learn the dungeon, and really really hard when you don't know the dungeons. It just punishes people who don't play a ton and spreads the PVE skill-curve based on experience rather than gameplay, which I'm never a fan of. We'll just have to wait and see how they do it. It's not like it ruins anything, I just think it would be better to have to at least run a single dungeon without being able to change builds to this extent.. although that wouldn't be ES-ish.... I get that you need to be able to pick up a new weapon and use it, so you'd have to be able to at least change your weapon spells around.

I know you don't want to tank, but that's what it looks like you're trying to do with bar#2. It's not a support bar, just a tank bar with no taunt and without damage that you can time for key-points or anything. I'm sorry, but for group PVE your bar #2 is not a good bar. Destro - Resto would be a much better combination because you could still do the exact (actually more) amount of damage but your other bar will actually be worthwhile for your group. You say you want a dungeon build, and you say your goal with both bars is DPS with fire emphasis.... yet neither of your bars will do as much DPS as they would if you were more focused. The truth is that for group PVE you need to be a lot more directed per each bar than if you were PVE solo. I'm sure your grasp on numbers is very good but right here it's not about the numbers it's about the group synergy. So, here's what I'd recommend: Don't take stamina for an all MP build. Ditch the 2 heavy for more DPS, and just rely on your group a bit more. You also said it's not a good idea to split up single and AOE damage, so I'll try to fix that. You also split your defensives so they are completely self-serving. Again, relying on your group a bit more would be better because your only defensives for yourself are within melee range again, so you're forced to rely on your group a lot-especially as Destro-Destro (which I am still against because it's simply overkill-you're not using a destro skill in bar#2, why not go resto and help out a bit more?--and actually do a bit more damage, which I'll explain later. Petrify doesn't need to be on your DPS bar because it lasts long and it's a support spell that isn't always necessary--you should be trying to DPS with bar#1, in my opinion. Trying to achieve the same goal with both bars is silly, you can find a "best" combination and just use that. I'll try to incorporate your desire though for defensives and offensives mixed within each other. Your first bar is fine, my only recommendation is that I'd put petrify on your other bar. Spiked Armor's a good choice for your bar#1 because of light armor and that you'll be in melee-ranged a lot. Spiked armor also gives you the +healing passive that's amazing from that tree. You won't benefit the group as much with the two muddled bars as you would if you were able to do more DPS with one, and support the group when you aren't DPSing with the other bar. So, here's what I'd recommend: 7 light armor, 66% mp 33% hp, dunmer, dk, mp regen as necessary--filled with power enchants. Destro: DPS Spiked Armor helps VS melee, which in a group setting should be all the self-buffing you need to overcome light armor--because you can rely on your team to help peel/heal for you since you're DPS. With this bar you see you have a lot more options for damage Weakness to Elements (Used prior to Fiery, so that the +weapon damage from next hit on fiery grip is applied, +it has a higher range so you'll cast it first anyway usually.) Fiery Grip Searing Strike Fiery Breath - OR - Lava Whip, depending on if you want to have an AOE or if you want to have a spammable single-target. I would definitely recommend taking Lava Whip, but I think that you would disagree and take Fiery Breath even though in your initial bar #1 it was only single-target. Spiked Armor *DK Standard - Good DPS Resto: Group Support Petrify Molten Weapons - Or, take a spammable damage (either force Shock or I'd recommend Lava Whip if it's not on your bar#1. Having a spammable damage button is very important in my opinion. The spammable damage will actually do more damage here on the Resto Bar than Destro because of the +% dmg based on health--assuming you don't have time to set up a white hit or weakness of elements first, so it might be better to take Lava Whip on this bar, meaning that Fiery Breath was probably the right choice for Bar#1.) Obsidian Shield Regeneration Blessing of Protection (between obsidian shield/regeneration it's probably enough to help out when time's needed *Ancestral Guardian - Not only helps you, but helps the whole group a lot by tanking something. So, you can see that your bar#1 is almost identical to the one I'd recommend. Your bar#2 though is entirely self-serving, which might be good to increase your own survival but the healer's going to need support sometimes too. Here's my recommendation cleaned up: Dunmer DK Light Destro/Resto Bar 1 - Destro Weakness to Elements Fiery Grip Searing Strike Fiery Breath EDIT: Force Shock Spiked Armor *DK Standard Bar 2 - Resto Petrify Obsidian Shield Regeneration Molten Weapons Lava Whip EDIT: Fiery Breath *Ancestral Guardian Bar #1 you just take an AOE over Petrify, Bar #2 you just take different defensives that I believe are more beneficial for your goals (group pve) and then you have the capacity to do huge burst damage that doesn't require setup. Depending on if it stays on between swaps, you should have plenty of MP/Regen that you could keep the bonuses on bar#2 up while also sustaining DPS with bar#1, and then even switching to bar#2 just for bursting power even after setting up weakness with bar#1. I believe these small changes would be greatly beneficial. You don't need to take this advice, because your bars are fine--but I hope you can see where I'm coming from--because I truly believe that these bars are more focused as well as more beneficial for your desired outcome - Group PVE. EDIT: Force Shock might be nice to have on bar#1 because you won't always want to pull the target to you, and it's 28m range so sometimes it might be really nice to have. Maybe put Force Shock instead of Fiery Breath and then put Fiery Breath instead of Lave Whip. I think this would be a better choice, not only is it ranged but it's a good spammable MP dump on your DPS bar that's easy to use. Hmm, after making that change I actually really like this build..it's pretty damn sexy. XD

Aye, this kind of broad spectrum is probably what he was asking about huh? XD Nice post-- you should make a "The Healing Thread" and post this as OP. I'd say Argonian is definitely better then Dunmer for healing, but that's debatable. You should expand this a bit more about armor choice and 2nd weapon and such as well if you're going to make a thread for it. I really really like your post.

One bar is good against single-target melee, the other bar is supposed to be good for AOE..tanking almost? But your abilities are all short-ranged so you'd be tanking melee-only really and since you're in light armor this is a very bad idea. Also, you don't have anything that costs stamina--so why do you want to waste 9 points into stamina? What are the goals of your two bars? Please be specific, tell us what you want each of your bars to specifically accomplish.

I'm sure most will, but I think a lot of people will switch back to a pve spec right before killing an npc enemy--prime killing time! ^.^

If you maximize your healing abilities then it gives you more room to DPS at the same time though, no need to slow down--you can always just go faster if you have a better build because there's so many things you can do you'll never feel like it's easy, hopefully you'll just be able to do more on the side if you're able to heal easier. www.facebook.com/musclemagicps4 I've been thinking a lot about sorce healing, and I think I might make my main a sorce healer instead of a templar. I've been dead-set on templar since the day they released the classes...but now I'm pretty sure I want to be a sorc, but I'm not sure yet. I haven't been able to make as good of a healing build with sorce as templar. btw, I plan on being a pvp healer but with the ability to do a lot of damage as well--so we have similar goals.

Nothing I say is a fact, haha, I guess I'm a hard agnostic in all walks of life. XD I am wondering what the classical logical mistake was though? I know all the main logical fallacies and I don't think any apply.

There's more synergy with heavy while using 2h/dw/s&s to do damage..meaning that +weapon damage and stamina is key for DPS. I think that Templar has the most stamina, and that this will be the most important thing for stamina based damage attacks.