RuneScape's 30 Second Log In Advertisements

[David]

If you're unaware, Jagex now has you watch a 30 second advertisement every time you log in if you're F2P. It's absolutely awful. If I still played I would quit instantly.I know RuneScape players have been complaining about Jagex's incompetence for years tongue-in-cheek, but I think now we can finally face the facts. RuneScape is just irrefutably complete garbage at this point. I don't know why anyone would play such a game when the developer has resorted to complete bullshit and sold out game achievements (you know, the entire reason you play) completely by introducing the ability to buy everything in-game with real cash.GG RuneScape. On the bright side I've rid myself of dealing with the train wreck developer that is Jagex. By the way, Jagex, protip: don't spend ten years developing a game on a platform that was dead when you started and then wonder why everyone gives your game shit.

[Fergal]

Really? Well, that's just stupid. It's not going to get people to buy P2P, just stop them from playing... for the most part anyway, lol.RS is gone to shit now, lol.

[Dy3nasty666]

thats just stupid... time to bot in an attempt to piss them off

[Snuggles]

Name one game that is free, 100% free, and doesn't advertise to pay the bills?You're just being an old school elitist who is crying that the game you started ten years ago isn't the same. :\

[David]

Name one game that is free, 100% free, and doesn't advertise to pay the bills?

You're just being an old school elitist who is crying that the game you started ten years ago isn't the same. :

Are you serious? I know web advertising; RuneScape had a 728x90 leaderboard above the F2P game for years. I'm not complaining about advertising or a company making a proft, I'm complaining that they've implemented an extremely intrusive ad system that literally forces you to watch an advertisement for 30 seconds within the game. If that doesn't seem like a long time, stare at a watch for 30 straight seconds. Between that and the squeal of fortune gimmick Jagex has sold out their whole achievement oriented gameplay.

[Snuggles]

So what, they should put an advertisement in that you can skip? That defeats the purpose and makes them no money. Kind of like how programs like NoScript block advertisements and cause websites to lose money. I've been to plenty of sites where they have to actually ask people to turn it off so they can stay in business. You may play for enjoyment, the makers created the game for profit. The makers make no profit, and you get no game, or updates to that game. It's such a capitalist thing to say but; Time == MoneyDon't forget Jagex has other games they focus on as well. For a web browser based game, it's lasted a long time. Much longer than anyone expected I'm sure. Especially with gamed such as Guild Wars and World of Warcraft out there. Hell, I'm sure that Everquest still has more players than Runescape ever did ( Don't quote me on that. Simply using a hyperbole ).I don't understand your problem with the Squeal of Fortune either. Not everyone has the time to sink hundreds of thousands of hours into a game to get a Party Hat or a Halloween Mask. I personally like the idea of having a chance to get a cool item just for playing. It gives me a reason to actually log in. It continues to bring people back, because they feel like their efforts aren''t simply going to waste/ The game wasn't meant for the hardcore gamer to begin with, so why should the casual gamer suffer? If you want to play a hardcore MMO then Runescape should not even be something touched.You still have achievements. 99 in a skill, event items for holidays. There are plenty of achievement items in the game still, and they are STILL adding more if I'm not mistaken. Didn't the ten year cape just get released? Is that not an achievement?Real money for a game is an every day thing now. Like I said, people don't have time to sink a lifetime into a game so they would rather buy the items. That is a personal choice and has no real effect on the game besides bringing in MORE players. Being a DiabloII veteran, I worked for all my gear. Yet whenever someone with better gear would show up, I would still come out victorious because I obviously put more time and energy into the game. I understood the mechanics better.Runescape always has, and always will be, the hardcore gamers version of Farmville. Something you can play casually but if you decide you want to sink plenty of time and money into it. It can be played on a somewhat serious level as well. It will NEVER be a true MMO though, and it was never meant to be one. If it was meant to be a hardcore MMO, they failed since day one.

[David]

I don't know why you're arguing with me on the advertisements. I've already said I understand they need to make money, and how they've always done so in much better fashion in the past. The issue is with the direction they've taken the game; a direction that's led them to alienate such a large percentage of their userbase that they've had to introduce things like SF to increase the revenue they've lost. Is it their choice to use methods like aggressive in-game advertising and real world money? Yes, it is. It's also my choice as a (former, for the reasons stated) paying member/player to quit, and I know I'm not alone.

You say there are still achievements, and you are correct. It's not that there aren't achievements, it's what they've done to them; one example being RuneCrafting. RC used to be a skill that equated to about 15k experience per hour. Now? You can probably get about 200k without much effort or stats, and that's not even factoring in things like SF. The result? Thousands of players who invested literally thousands of hours of their lives for this "achievement" instantly lost most of what their achievement was worth as soon as that skill update hit. You bring up the fact that "not everyone has the time" for such things. You completely hit the nail on the head, and that's precisely why it's... Well, was... Such a great achievement in the first place. Why should everyone suddenly be getting things for free? Taking away any sense of accomplishment is certainly not bringing people back to a game that's based 100% on dull grinding.

Now, back to the RC example, because I know someone will bring it up... Was that change needed? Probably. But now we've come full circle to the original problem I brought up - there is no consistency to anything Jagex does. It's horrible game designing, and they compound one mistake with dozens upon dozens of others. Case in point? Several years ago Jagex had the same video advertising (albeit out of the game). They ended up having to remove it due to severe user backlash.

[Snuggles]

I don't know why you're arguing with me on the advertisements. I've already said I understand they need to make money, and how they've always done so in much better fashion in the past. The issue is with the direction they've taken the game; a direction that's led them to alienate such a large percentage of their userbase that they've had to introduce things like SF to increase the revenue they've lost. Is it their choice to use methods like aggressive in-game advertising and real world money? Yes, it is. It's also my choice as a (former, for the reasons stated) paying member/player to quit, and I know I'm not alone.

Well the title of the post is about the thirty second advertisement... as well as being part of your original rant. I agree with everything said here too. It is your choice to quit, just as it's my choice to stay and defend Jagex.

You say there are still achievements, and you are correct. It's not that there aren't achievements, it's what they've done to them; one example being RuneCrafting. RC used to be a skill that equated to about 15k experience per hour. Now? You can probably get about 200k without much effort or stats, and that's not even factoring in things like SF. The result? Thousands of players who invested literally thousands of hours of their lives for this "achievement" instantly lost most of what their achievement was worth as soon as that skill update hit. You bring up the fact that "not everyone has the time" for such things. You completely hit the nail on the head, and that's precisely why it's... Well, was... Such a great achievement in the first place. Why should everyone suddenly be getting things for free? Taking away any sense of accomplishment is certainly not bringing people back to a game that's based 100% on dull grinding.

This is how gaming is going to be for a while. It started off for the hardcore, and now the more casual person is gaming. There is a big market in this and companies, especially Jagex ( Which I agree with for them ), are hopping on the bandwagon. Look at games like Diablo III or Skyrim for example. Compared to their older titles, the complexity dropped so the average gamer could understand and actually play. Hell, this whole forum seems to be based on Skyrim. Skyrim, compared to Morrowind, is a horrible game with every single problem you seem to have with Runescape. You don't hate Skyrim though, do you?

This is exactly why I have a problem with the FGC ( Fighting Game Community ) and any other elitists group. They don't want to share in the wealth. They want it all to themselves so they can be the best. Bob Dylan said it best, the times they are a changin'. You sound like you should be playing competitive games where being the best at something actually matters. Why should I be considered low class at something simply because I don't have the time to invest when I'm obviously better at it? Time does not always equal skill, nor does it equal fun. Which is what the goal of any game should be. Depending on how you plan on playing it.

Also, I'm pretty sure they aren't trying to bring back the people who have already dumped a few hundred thousand hours into the game. They have already done everything there is and when something new comes out. They are already so powerful it is a simple task. They want to bring in the new crowd. How do you do that? You give them an incentive.

Now, back to the RC example, because I know someone will bring it up... Was that change needed? Probably. But now we've come full circle to the original problem I brought up - there is no consistency to anything Jagex does. It's horrible game designing, and they compound one mistake with dozens upon dozens of others. Case in point? Several years ago Jagex had the same video advertising (albeit out of the game). They ended up having to remove it due to severe user backlash.

I can almost guarantee 90% of that 'user backlash' were the elitists I keep talking about. People who have been playing forever and don't like the change. Advertising is not a 'horrible game design'. Making skills that take literally weeks to complete and helping to speed them up is not 'horrible game design'. In fact it's the total opposite. People like to feel rewarded for their efforts when they play a game. That's just the way it is. For those that don't, there are games like Shadowgate, Ninja Gaiden, Dark Souls. These games exist, people just seem to ignore them because the easier games get more publicity.

People are already talking about quitting and the EOC or whatever it's called hasn't even been fully released yet. People just don't want their precious game to change because they are comfortable. They don't want to learn something new because that means they are now on a level playing field with everyone else. With the 'noobs' who only started recently.

[David]

Skyrim, compared to Morrowind, is a horrible game with every single problem you seem to have with Runescape. You don't hate Skyrim though, do you?

I don't see how this relates at all. I disagree that Skyrim is a worse game, though that's definitely subjective anyways.

Why should I be considered low class at something simply because I don't have the time to invest when I'm obviously better at it? Time does not always equal skill, nor does it equal fun. Which is what the goal of any game should be. Depending on how you plan on playing it.

I'm not saying that time equals skill or any of that, in fact those who played RS with me know that I consistently hated on the game because there was no "skill" involved as much as a life-consuming grind session. I don't disagree with you there, with the exception to the fact being that

Also, I'm pretty sure they aren't trying to bring back the people who have already dumped a few hundred thousand hours into the game. They have already done everything there is and when something new comes out. They are already so powerful it is a simple task. They want to bring in the new crowd. How do you do that? You give them an incentive.

RuneScape is a game where thousands of hours don't get you very far. Most players in the clan have 80-100+ days invested and aren't even particularly high leveled. Giving skills and items away for free isn't putting incentive on anything. In fact, it's taking AWAY incentive to actually play the game because there's no reason to actually play it. You said earlier that...

The game wasn't meant for the hardcore gamer to begin with

RuneScape is a hardcore game. The time investment required to accomplish anything is immense. Sure, people can, do, and should play it casually. That doesn't mean that it isn't targeted towards hardcode gamers. Just because something isn't complex doesn't mean it's not hardcore; the time investment RuneScape requires is probably higher than any other mainstream game out there. What else could make it more hardcore than that?

I can almost guarantee 90% of that 'user backlash' were the elitists I keep talking about. People who have been playing forever and don't like the change. Advertising is not a 'horrible game design'. Making skills that take literally weeks to complete and helping to speed them up is not 'horrible game design'. In fact it's the total opposite. People like to feel rewarded for their efforts when they play a game. That's just the way it is. For those that don't, there are games like Shadowgate, Ninja Gaiden, Dark Souls. These games exist, people just seem to ignore them because the easier games get more publicity.

Where does this "elitist" thing come from? Is it "elitist" that I'm pointing out that changes Jagex have made have led to a much, much worse user experience for EVERYONE (who likes being forced to stare at ads)? When there is an issue, people call it out, the developer takes the hint, and hopefully things improve. The whole notion that I'm just trying to "lock out the noobs" is ridiculous. I'm what, level 100 with like 20m experience?

No where did I say advertising was horrible game design, or at least didn't mean to relate the two. The rest of the paragraph seems right in line with what I was saying. People want to (and should) be rewarded for playing the game. How is buying 200k RC experience with real money playing? That's the whole issue I have with SF. I was even more confused when you mentioned those games, because they are some of the most rewarding games of this generation. Are you saying buying in-game achievements or getting an assist-aided Wii game victory is rewarding, as opposed to struggling to beat harder games? The reward is that much greater in my opinion.

I apologize if I sound condenscending, I'm just wondering what you meant with this paragraph. I should add that I'm just glad to have someone to argue with around here because it's been slow lately, and harbor no ill feelings.

People are already talking about quitting and the EOC or whatever it's called hasn't even been fully released yet. People just don't want their precious game to change because they are comfortable. They don't want to learn something new because that means they are now on a level playing field with everyone else. With the 'noobs' who only started recently.

I agree completely, people are always stupidly upset before any updates. People were even mad about the GE, which was probably the greatest idea of all time. I will say, though, that those annoyed at having to "learn something new," while probably a valid complaint, really doesn't have anything to do with my game design/SF/ad complaints.

[Snuggles]

I don't see how this relates at all. I disagree that Skyrim is a worse game, though that's definitely subjective anyways.

It's a watered down version of something they already did. Making shortcuts for things they have already done. Play Morrowind and then play Oblivion or Skyrim and tell me that it isn't just a watered down version with shortcuts for each 'accomplishment'. Everything you are complaining about happening to Runescape, has been going on with every game coming out for the past four years. They are making those achievements easier to reach so the average gamer doesn't feel discouraged when a hardcore gamer is so much further than them.

The best of the best are still obvious. They just made the gap between the lower class and the upper class smaller. Communist Runescape, if you will.

I'm not saying that time equals skill or any of that, in fact those who played RS with me know that I consistently hated on the game because there was no "skill" involved as much as a life-consuming grind session. I don't disagree with you there, with the exception to the fact being that

Then I don't understand what he problem is besides advertising. Nothing about the game has changed at all except for details. The core of the game is still exactly what it was ten years ago.

RuneScape is a game where thousands of hours don't get you very far. Most players in the clan have 80-100+ days invested and aren't even particularly high leveled. Giving skills and items away for free isn't putting incentive on anything. In fact, it's taking AWAY incentive to actually play the game because there's no reason to actually play it. You said earlier that...

They aren't giving anything away. You are getting a chance to win it, or paying real money that you WORKED for. Let these people have their fun. Like I said, as an old DiabloII Vet I know when someone paid for their account because they didn't know how to control or use everything that had properly.

RuneScape is a hardcore game. The time investment required to accomplish anything is immense. Sure, people can, do, and should play it casually. That doesn't mean that it isn't targeted towards hardcode gamers. Just because something isn't complex doesn't mean it's not hardcore; the time investment RuneScape requires is probably higher than any other mainstream game out there. What else could make it more hardcore than that?

No, I never said Runescape was a hardcore game. In fact I said the exact opposite. It's like Farmville for Hardcore gamers. It's simply something pass time when you can't play a real game. Anyone who isn't a casual gamer and loves grinding games is already playing something like WoW, GW2, or FFXI. Sure, there are some people who put a lot of time into the game. There are also people who put hundreds of thousands of hours into a Sims game. Doesn't mean it isn't a casual game. The time investment for Runescape is a joke compared to many of the MMO's out there. I remember having to cast a fireball spell 250,000 times just to reach level 10 in FFXI. The level cap was 50. You weren't even half way to 50 until you had reached level 41.

Where on earth do you keep getting this "elitist" thing? Is it "elitist" that I'm pointing out that changes Jagex have made have led to a much, much worse user experience FOR EVERYONE? When there is an issue, people call it out, the developer takes the hint, and hopefully things improve. The whole notion that I'm just trying to "lock out the noobs" is ridiculous. I'm what, level 100 with like 20m experience?

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e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)

n.

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

2.

a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.

b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

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The old school players believe they control and rule the game. This is not true. Jagex owns and controls the game. If their decisions will bring in more people to play, that is good for them. They don't care about you or me or any of the old school players. They are worried about bringing in the new crowd and keeping them long enough to make their moneys worth. It's called a business. They know their hardcore fans will stay until the end, and even if they do lose a few here and there. The few hundred they bring back because of the change will easily cover it.

----------------------

noob

noob

  [noob]

noun Slang: Usually Disparaging. a newbie, especially a person who is new to an online community and whose online participation and interactions display a lack of skill or knowledge

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Old school players don't want the game to change, because this is what they are used to and comfortable with. They don't want to feel like the playing field is now even because, like you said, they put so much time into the game. Why should someone who has only been playing a year be on the same level as them, someone who has been playing for ten years? I'm pretty sure this is the real complaint when it comes down to the core of things.

I will say this though. The players do make a big impact on the game. They do not get the final decision though. They take our input with the ideas they already have. Then decide if it will fit or not. At least, that's how it should be. Numbers and profits are the biggest influence on the game though.

No where did I say advertising was horrible game design, or at least didn't mean to relate the two. The rest of the paragraph seems right in line with what I was saying. People want to (and should) be rewarded for playing the game. How is buying 200k RC experience with real money playing? That's the whole issue I have with SF. I was even more confused when you mentioned those games, because they are some of the most rewarding games of this generation. Are you saying buying in-game achievements or getting an assist-aided Wii game victory is rewarding, as opposed to struggling to beat harder games? The reward is that much greater in my opinion.

SF = Street Fighter? Also, Shadowgate and and Ninja Gaiden are fairly old, lol. In fact I was talking NES versions of both to be honest. Dark Souls on the other hand I have yet to actually play. Although it is the next game on my list to buy.

That, is your opinion though. Maybe buying those achievements is rewarding to that person. What does it matter to do you? You know you earned it, isn't that all that matters? How it's rewarding is related to you, and only you. Everyone plays for their own reasons. If you watch anime, check out .Hack//Sign. They do a good job of explaining it. As does this article

I apologize if I sound condenscending, I'm just wondering what you meant with this paragraph. I should add that I'm just glad to have someone to argue with around here because it's been slow lately, and harbor no ill feelings.

I agree completely, people are always stupidly upset before any updates. People were even mad about the GE, which was probably the greatest idea of all time. I will say, though, that those annoyed at having to "learn something new," while probably a valid complaint, really doesn't have anything to do with my game design/SF/ad complaints.

Honestly, I hated the GE. It ruined my cash making operation. Find someone selling ranarr for cheap, then resell them to someone else for a profit. The GE did somewhat ruin the economy at first. As they say, something is worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it.

I mean nothing bad by what I say on here. It's simply a heated debate and if any feelings are hurt please tell me. I'll shut up immediately, lol. I would like to add I do respect your opinion on the matter and I do understand where you are coming from. I just disagree.

[David]

Then I don't understand what he problem is besides advertising. Nothing about the game has changed at all except for details. The core of the game is still exactly what it was ten years ago.

Yes, the core is the same. You hit upon the issue with the paragraph above this statement, though, with the Skyrim example. I'm just going to agree to disagree with the TES thing since it's kind of off topic and debating it further won't go anywhere, but the point you were trying to make with it is basically my answer to what I quoted (and more, but I'll add that below).

They aren't giving anything away. You are getting a chance to win it, or paying real money that you WORKED for. Let these people have their fun. Like I said, as an old DiabloII Vet I know when someone paid for their account because they didn't know how to control or use everything that had properly.

That, is your opinion though. Maybe buying those achievements is rewarding to that person. What does it matter to do you? You know you earned it, isn't that all that matters? How it's rewarding is related to you, and only you. Everyone plays for their own reasons. If you watch anime, check out .Hack//Sign. They do a good job of explaining it. As does this article

I understand what you're saying, but in a game like RuneScape your achievement (for most players) is directly related to what other players have accomplished. Hence the highscores. Yes, they don't matter to the casual players, but the fact of the matter is that in the context of RuneScape having people buy in-game accomplishments (while rewarding to them) IS in fact diminishing the accomplishment of other players who have earned it fairly. To use the Bill of Rights as an example, U.S. citizens have access to many rights as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. Maybe an extreme example, but it pretty much boils down to the same thing. It comes back to consistency.

No, I never said Runescape was a hardcore game. In fact I said the exact opposite. It's like Farmville for Hardcore gamers. It's simply something pass time when you can't play a real game. Anyone who isn't a casual gamer and loves grinding games is already playing something like WoW, GW2, or FFXI. Sure, there are some people who put a lot of time into the game. There are also people who put hundreds of thousands of hours into a Sims game. Doesn't mean it isn't a casual game. The time investment for Runescape is a joke compared to many of the MMO's out there. I remember having to cast a fireball spell 250,000 times just to reach level 10 in FFXI. The level cap was 50. You weren't even half way to 50 until you had reached level 41.

I know you never said it was a hardcore game, I was just disagreeing with you. You're not even half-way to level 99 in RuneScape until level 92 (I'm sad I know this, wasted brain space), and to get to 99 Magic have to cast Wind Strike over 1.7 million times. I'm not familiar with FFXI, but RuneScape is at least in the game when it comes to time consuming endeavors. All I was saying is that in itself makes it "hardcore" in my book, yours may be different (which is fair).

The old school players believe they control and rule the game. This is not true. Jagex owns and controls the game. If their decisions will bring in more people to play, that is good for them. They don't care about you or me or any of the old school players. They are worried about bringing in the new crowd and keeping them long enough to make their moneys worth. It's called a business. They know their hardcore fans will stay until the end, and even if they do lose a few here and there. The few hundred they bring back because of the change will easily cover it.

First of all, I have no idea why you defined elitist and noob; I know what they mean. What I didn't understand is why this is coming up or what it really has to do with the situation. Yes, some veterans hate change and everything. That doesn't change the fact that many of the changes that aren't related to the core gameplay have been ridiculous in many eyes for reasons stated earlier in this thread. I already tried to explain that I'm no "elitist" RuneScape player. I don't even play anymore, "noobs" are definitely already on my level.

SF = Street Fighter? Also, Shadowgate and and Ninja Gaiden are fairly old, lol. In fact I was talking NES versions of both to be honest. Dark Souls on the other hand I have yet to actually play. Although it is the next game on my list to buy.

Squeel of Fortune. Ninja Gaiden, at least, has relatively new installments. Either way the age wasn't really relevant to the point I was trying to make.

One thing I will say is that all these games (including the TES games earlier) are all SINGLE player games. No one cares if you cheat or get things "unfairly" in these games because it's all based on YOUR single experience. This isn't really applicable to RS's situation at all since people buying stats does hurt the sense of accomplishment of other players.

[Huygens]

I seriously dont know what the fuck is wrong with Jagex. If you're in control of a game that has been becoming less and less popular over the years, because of bad decisions, you can at least try to make it a better game for everyone. Seriously, any retard could do a better job than the guys at Jagex.

[Snuggles]

Yes, the core is the same. You hit upon the issue with the paragraph above this statement, though, with the Skyrim example. I'm just going to agree to disagree with the TES thing since it's kind of off topic and debating it further won't go anywhere, but the point you were trying to make with it is basically my answer to what I quoted (and more, but I'll add that below).

The TES comments were just meant as examples. I could have easily used DiabloIII, CoD:MW2 or Battlefield3 as a reference as well but I figured the TES series would hit a bit closer to home.

I understand what you're saying, but in a game like RuneScape your achievement (for most players) is directly related to what other players have accomplished. Hence the highscores. Yes, they don't matter to the casual players, but the fact of the matter is that in the context of RuneScape having people buy in-game accomplishments (while rewarding to them) IS in fact diminishing the accomplishment of other players who have earned it fairly. To use the Bill of Rights as an example, U.S. citizens have access to many rights as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. Maybe an extreme example, but it pretty much boils down to the same thing. It comes back to consistency.

I completely agree with this paragraph. On the flip side, if someone is willing to pay Jagex big money just to have their name on the top of a list then don't you think they deserve it? They work hard at whatever job they do ( I would hope anyway, to drop cash on a game such as this ) and being the high score in a skill is their way of showing that they work. It may not be the same as doing the work in Runescape, but it is work none-the-less. You also have to take into account, how many of the top scorers are bots? Or several friends playing on one account? or a mix of both? You honestly think the #1 person in ANY skill did that themselves? It is possible, I just highly doubt it.

My opinion on top scores in any game is that they are all a joke. Someone, in fact, the top ten, usually cheat their way to the top just so they can say they are the best. They don't ever actually play the game. Take Zezima (sp?). I'm not saying he cheated, but at the same time, I seriously doubt it was a single person who achieved 99 in every skill so quickly. In fact when the Hunter skill came out, I was in the top 10 for the first 14 hours. Then, as every human must do, I slept. Woke up four hours later to people already at the 80+ mark and dropped down to number 500+. High scores are, and always will be broken in any game because someone out there is going to boost their way to the top just for that recognition. For that little self-esteem boost.

I know you never said it was a hardcore game, I was just disagreeing with you. You're not even half-way to level 99 in RuneScape until level 92 (I'm sad I know this, wasted brain space), and to get to 99 Magic have to cast Wind Strike over 1.7 million times. I'm not familiar with FFXI, but RuneScape is at least in the game when it comes to time consuming endeavors. All I was saying is that in itself makes it "hardcore" in my book, yours may be different (which is fair).

FFXI is the game that was known to ruin lives more than WoW, just not in America. Everyone but those crazy Koreans couldn't handle how insanely hard and how much grinding there was to that game. Nothing was worse than being level 2, killing tiny little rabbits who STILL almost killed you. When suddenly a giant rabbit appears and one hits you. Making you lose half of your experience and having to run all the way back out there. Many of the hardcore MMO full of grinding don't even make it across seas simply because they know that the sales over here would be so minimal it isn't worth it. People are always looking and waiting for the 'next big thing' so games get dropped quickly. People may get robbed for Runescape gold. People get killed for FFXI items.

Runescape has the possibility to be a hardcore game. It would need a total revamp though. In it's current state it won't be possible because they don't have the man power to deal with the major economy issues such as botting. Also, the way the game was developed is over ten years old. Any game where you can use a program developed by a high school student to cheat at is obviously outdated.

I really think of Runescape was attempting to be a serious hardcore MMO it would have died out long ago.

First of all, I have no idea why you defined elitist and noob; I know what they mean. What I didn't understand is why this is coming up or what it really has to do with the situation. Yes, some veterans hate change and everything. That doesn't change the fact that many of the changes that aren't related to the core gameplay have been ridiculous in many eyes for reasons stated earlier in this thread. I already tried to explain that I'm no "elitist" RuneScape player. I don't even play anymore, "noobs" are definitely already on my level.

People complaining about the change usually are elitists. Like you said, why should someone who has put so many hours into a game be on a level playing field as someone who hasn't? That is an elitists mentality, is it not? Why should I, the person who put so many hours into this game, have the same items as someone who paid $20? As long as the core gameplay is solid and stays intact, what difference does it make if Jagex decides to redo the Party Hat or the Halloween Masks. You mean to tell me people play Runescape for years just so they can afford a Party Hat?

There will always be those achievements you so desire, and those special items. They just won't be as abundant, making them even better.

I'm pretty sure the reason more people don't have 99 in certain skills, is because they stopped caring about Runescape and went on to play real MMOs or just stopped playing games in general. I mean, after 10 years, even playing for an hour a day. The average person should have 99+ in every skill easily.

Squeel of Fortune. Ninja Gaiden, at least, has relatively new installments. Either way the age wasn't really relevant to the point I was trying to make.

One thing I will say is that all these games (including the TES games earlier) are all SINGLE player games. No one cares if you cheat or get things "unfairly" in these games because it's all based on YOUR single experience. This isn't really applicable to RS's situation at all since people buying stats does hurt the sense of accomplishment of other players.

The Squeal of Fortune, honestly, I have no idea how long it has existed. I'm sure just like everything else, it will die out eventually and be replaced by something else. It's just a gimmick to bring back old players and to maybe give incentive to new players to keep playing. With the hope that they will get a really good item.

Replace Shadowgate with Everquest, Ninja Gaiden with DiabloIII, and TES with WoW then. All is fair in love and war. MMO's are just that. A giant battlefield. You either play for fun, or you play to be the best. Of course there are reasons in-between but those are the two core reasons.

I seriously dont know what the fuck is wrong with Jagex. If you're in control of a game that has been becoming less and less popular over the years, because of bad decisions, you can at least try to make it a better game for everyone. Seriously, any retard could do a better job than the guys at Jagex.

Then go make your own game? That is of course unless you are too 'retarded' to do better than Jagex... Do you know the average life span of an MMO? Hell, of any game in general? It definitely isn't 10+ years. So they must be doing something right. Jagex isn't the one with problems, it's players such as yourself that are the problem.

When I first started playing Runescape, there wasn't nearly as many worlds as their are now. Even with less worlds, some of them would have at the most 100 people, if even that. Now the least populated world never has less than 400 people in it.

This is that elitists mentality I keep talking about. Thank you for proving my point.

Off topic but... quoting names on this board is annoying :[

[Blake]

Name one game that is free, 100% free, and doesn't advertise to pay the bills?

TEAM FORTRESS 2!!@!@#!@#@!#

If only somebody wrote an article about this very issue, more or less.

[Jake]

Oh, Snuggles, how angry you have made me.You contradicted yourself by saying Runescape is for casual gamers, then calling it the hardcore version of Farmville. Plus, although I WILL admit it is a gateway MMO, it's still more hardcore than many, many other games on the market.Anyway, now that I think about it, I guess you kind of have a point. It's a bit sad that the common man has gotten involved in the industry. Now the men in suits are taking massive dumps on all of our childhoods.

[Snuggles]

Oh, Snuggles, how angry you have made me.You contradicted yourself by saying Runescape is for casual gamers, then calling it the hardcore version of Farmville. Plus, although I WILL admit it is a gateway MMO, it's still more hardcore than many, many other games on the market.Anyway, now that I think about it, I guess you kind of have a point. It's a bit sad that the common man has gotten involved in the industry. Now the men in suits are taking massive dumps on all of our childhoods.

No, I said it's the Hardcore gamers version of Farmville. As in, it's something simple and easy to do to pass the time in-between playing a real game. Just like people who sit on Facebook all day play Farmville as they wait for a response from someone or for someone to post something interesting ( Like that ever happens. Lulz ). It's something you can click and then walk away from, or if you find yourself having a little extra time than you thought. You can go level combat or pk or something. Runescape, in reality, is about as shallow as a shower.If you want to get technical though... Any game can be considered a hardcore game if the right group gets into it. Look at SSBB ( Super Smash Brothers Brawl). The makers purposely added the tripping ability in that game for the simple reason they didn't want it played as a competitive game. They wanted it to be a fun party game. Well guess what, it's still a competitive fighter. Even if the rest of the Fighting Game Community see it as a joke. SSBB has more people playing it competitively than some of the new fighters being released today. The community is what made that game.The problem here is, Runescape has no serious players anymore. All of the serious players have moved on years ago to something more interesting. There is no real long term goal for this game and there never was, It's just meant to kill time. The way the game was built, bots have destroyed any possible chance of this game being taken seriously.Jagex knew they couldn't compete with the bigger games at the time like Diablo or Everquest. So they took the core idea of an MMO, and condensed it into what is known as Runescape. The grinding, time consuming monster it is and always will be.Like I mentioned before. For a game, especially a web browser based game, to last this long. Is truly amazing and shows that the mechanics of the game are solid. The only thing keeping it alive though is the casual gamer who doesn't have the time to play WoW or GW2.

TEAM FORTRESS 2!!@!@#!@#@!#

In my defense, TF2 does start off at $10 I believe. You are right though. All updates/dlc/packs/etc are all free for download ( if I remember correctly ). It's also run almost entirely by the fans though. I'm sure every day there is a new mod being created for the game because someone came out with a new game type.The difference here is that Valve encourages people to play with the coding of their games. To mod them to their hearts content. They find something they like, and they advertise it for that person. Why make new content when you can have the fans do it for you? It's not only good for their business, but good for the community as well. This is why I think Valve is one of the best developers on the market and always will be.

[Jake]

In my defense, TF2 does start off at $10 I believe.

Actually, they dropped the price to free about a year ago. My computer is a piece of crap, so I unfortunately can't run it.

[Snuggles]

Actually, they dropped the price to free about a year ago. My computer is a piece of crap, so I unfortunately can't run it.

Damn, well.... I stand corrected. Valve proves again why they are the best in the business and hopefully the defibrillator that will resurrect the gaming industry for the hardcore gamer.

[Blake]

Yeah it's free with a limited drop system (pretty much means you won't get hats, which don't do anything anyway). And with a 5 dollar purchase you get every update free for life.They recently released Mann v.s Machine, which is basically like Zombies on COD, but robots.But this is off topic.

[Tynisa]

Long post, didnt read it all.30 seconds of an advert to play for over an hour - at least. I cant be bothered to do the maths, but i'm sure its still near 99.8% of your time spent actually playing the game, not watching adverts.