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Is Ulfric Stormcloak a Thalmor Spy?

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#1
Raven

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The saddest moment for me it was when i went into the Thalmor embassay and did the quest there and i found the report on ulfric and that he was a thalmor spy.........my whole world came shattering down.

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#2
David

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for me it was when i went into the Thalmor embassay and did the quest there and i found the report on ulfric and that he was a thalmor spy.........my whole world came shattering down

I remember reading it, but I didn't necessarily interpret it as him being a spy. Remember that the Thalmor described him as "uncooperative." I don't remember the exact wording, but I thought that he had to be "broken" through torture or something and then was allowed to escape (though he thought he did it himself). As a prisoner trying to escape he certainly wasn't on the Thalmor's side.Welcome to the site by the way. :)

#3
Tristan

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Oh hey i read that, he was too smart for them, Ulfric would never let thae thalmor stand in his way of rule, or worship

#4
Blake

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Yeah the dossier said he was an asset, but uncooperative. So his actions were helping the Thalmor by weakening the Empire and possibly running them out of Skyrim, but he wasn't in cahoots with them.And quoth the Raven, Never More

#5
Tristan

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And quoth the Raven, Never More

LoL Edgar Allen Poe, nice hes my favorite poet EVER

#6
Raven

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read it again guy it said he was uncooperative to contact not that he was uncooperative to them in general and thanks for the welcome :tongue:

#7
Blake

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Alright boys, Tragic told me I should stop getting off topic on these Skyrim topics. But what the hell does he know. I pay the bills, damnit, and I can talk about what I damn well want to. So here is the dossier in all it's entirely.

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval1

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen2. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset3.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact4.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant5. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim6. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war7, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed8.


I bolded and numbered some points I would like to hit on, like Isaiah's mom.

1. Thalmor are arrogant and confident. They call him an asset, which to them basically means a stooge who's actions are playing in their favor. The attached the word uncooperative, meaning that whatever aggreance they used to have is gone, an idea that is also backed up when they call him dormant, meaning inactive or idle.

2. At first his position as the son of a Jarl marked him as an asset and his interragator and torturer was told this. After he was told information that he gave them helped in the capturing of the Imperial City, which it didn't, he was allowed to escape.

3. Probably the part that confuses the most amount of people. I'll admit, even I'm not sure of it's entire meaning. I read it as both Ulfric and the Thalmor hate the Empire, maybe they kept in contact. I'm willing to bet most Jarls cooperated with the Thalmor until certain events came into play. Even if I was to believe he was indeed acting with Thalmor intentions, #4 will blow that idea out of the water.

4. Let's say the idea of Ulfric being a spy was under consideration. I think, and as it is explained in the dossier, that the Markarth Incident ended that. Ulfric was allowed to fight with his men to take a city in exchange for Talos worship in that city. After he took it, the Thalmor/Empire told him he couldn't worship Talos, even though it was promised. Although I don't think Ulfric cares too much about Talos, I think he genuinely cares about a free Skyrim and the ideals of his fellor Nords, who genuinely respect Talos. If Ulfric was ever a spy at one point of time, I say this is where it ended.

5. Again, dormant: Inactive, idle, no good.

6. This, again, explains why he is an asset to the Thalmor. They want the war to weaken both sides as much as possible. Doing so will discourage any Empire/Stormcloak rebellion against them.

7. Again, why he is an asset.

8. The Dominion doesn't want the Stormcloaks to win either, which I'll admit is a bit confusing. Maybe they think the Empire, having been destroyed in a war already, will be more willing to negotiate with the Thalmor longer than the rebels. Either way, if Ulfric was truly a spy, wouldn't they want him to win? Ulfric is a good speaker and leader and the Thalmor would use him to manipulate the rebels if he really was a Thalmor spy.

If you google "is ulfric a spy", you'll see lots and lots of topics about this very subject. Until yesterday, I had no idea that this was such a heavily debated issue.

#8
David

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Good analysis, and you're right that this is actually a pretty heated topic around the internet. It has a lot of google search potential, so I've split this thread into a new topic. I might actually promote Blexun's post to an article as well since it's a great breakdown.As I said before, when I originally read it I interpreted Ulfric being an "asset" as more or less how the Thalmor indirectly benefitted from his campaign against the Empire. That's not to say he was intentionally aiding the Thalmor as much as creating a war that further weakened the Empire's standing. He may have potentially been receiving aid from them prior to Markarth (this is a big unknown), but again that's not the same as spying anyway even if it was.I guess your perspective on Ulfric comes down to whether or not you put emphasis on Skyrim vs. Empire, or Empire vs. Thalmor.

#9
Guest

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If the Stormcloaks liberated skyrim then the empire and all of its influence would be gone, including the Thalmor. Sure they could wage a war but if the Stormcloaks drove the empire out, and have the Dragonborn on their side they have a sure shot at weakening the Dominion. Remember Hammerfell and the Empire want the Dominion gone or wiped out so they would easily rally against the weakened Thalmor. That's the best outcome politically i could think of. The Stormcloaks and the Empire hate the Dominion all the same, however ending the civil conflict as soon as possible would be beneficial for both sides (remember how big the Empire is). I think if and only if the Dominion surrendered and left for their homeland the Empire would either feebly attempt to retake skyrim or count their losses and stay out of it completely.However i have some doubts about Ulfric, not that he's a Thalmor Spy but i think he's just rallying a civil war so he can become High King and used the banishment of Talos worship to gain the allegiance from the outraged nords.

#10
azizking2

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Why I joined the Stormcloaks:WARNING SPOILERS:I played Morrowind-Skyrim and I know a lot of the lore and history of Tamriel which is what impacted my decision. First of all racism was abundant way back then IRL and The Empire doesn't really trust all species or openly criticize except General Tullius who repeatedly insults Nordic culture. Nords are a species I play in every Elderscrolls game because I admire their strength in combat. Let's begin with the Thalmor dossier, Ulfric was one of the most powerful soldiers in the legion and without the Nords the Imperials would never have recaptured the Imperial city. Sleeper agent doesn't really mean he works for the Thalmor because he shows hostility towards Elenwen which I will get to explain later and when the Aldmeri Dominion denied Ulfric the worship of Talos in Markarth after he kicked out the Forsworn invaders remaining Bretons from after the terms of the Nordic-Breton peace treaty and the Forsworn didn't agree to it. Now let's get to the meeting, whether you kick out Elenwen or not will make one person more jerkier than the other. If you kick out Elenwen, Ulfric will be the good one and Tullius will be demanding land and if you allow Elenwen to remain Ulfric will be the jerk and Tullius will be the good one. Now for the racism, Nords used to be friends with their Elven neighbors in Ysgramor's time when they built Saarthal. Human population rapidly increased, this threatened the Snow Elves which allowed them to start a genocidal campaign against the men of Atmora. Ysgramor and his two sons returned to Atmora and told them of the Elven betrayal. 500 companions came with Ysgramor and fought the Elves and were victorious. Ysgramor founded Windhelm and became the first Nordic King. He then began a genocidal campaign against the Elves in revenge and they hid with the Dwemer and became Falmer while the rest hid and were killed by Falmer. Then only 2 exist and the Dragonborn kills one of them in Dawnguard. Well you can see where the sour relations began and to be fair the Dunmer were racist to everyone back in Morrowind and I remember a House Redoran guard saying to me "I'll cut your tongue you bag of filth" even though I did nothing. So the Dark Elves were basically more racist than the Nords. So because of the Elves Nords were cautious and racist to other species aside from humans. Now most of you Legionaires out there are saying without the Empire Skyrim would be under Thalmor rule, well you are most definitely wrong! After the Emperor said Hammerfell was no longer part of the Empire because they denied the terms of the White Gold concordat. The Thalmor instantly declared war and guess who won? The Redguards who had far less soldiers than the Empire and they became the only nation to defy the Thalmor and emerge victorious. That's how they got their independence. Nords are hardy, powerful people why can't they win if the Redguards already did? To all of you Argonians out there I made a play through to see this racisimTo my character and the Stormcloaks respected me for joining them! Plus the Stormcloaks treat me like family while the Legion treats it more formally. Stormcloaks call me brother while the legion calls me soldier. Ulfric before he decided he should be High King he liberated Markarth so Talos worship can be restored that was all he wanted in return and Torygg backed by the Empire denied it! Elisif is backed by the Empire because she is a weak ruler and she relies on Tullius and her court to do the work for her which will allow the Empire complete control of Skyrim! If you side with Empire Talos shrines will be removed and they have the most useful blessing reduced shout time, but if you side with the Stormcloaks Talos shrines will be restored and you have more places to get that blessing. I find Ulfric as a friend when I completed the quest line and if you joined the Companions their most valuable member and ally are Stormcloak loyalists. This is why I joined the Stormcloak against the Mede Empire because the Septim Empire ended 200 years ago when Martin Septim became the avatar of Akatosh. I also believe the Dragonborn should be an Emperor because it's tradition for a person with Dragon blood to become Emperor. DEATH TO TITUS MEDE II!!!!!





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