Musclemagic

I quoted every single one of your points and addressed them... I'll do it again-- :That Obsidian shield has a different describtion that they others doesn't matter, the dmg mitigation of the other skills to help you to keep up obsidian shield only works if you cast oblivion shield at the right position if it even works what we don't know. It can only take so much damage, you said it isn't as good as say... Conjured Ward which is a 24 point bubble for you and pets, but OS is a 26 point bubble for yourself and 13 for everyone else even though it only absorbs 40% instead of 100% it doesn't change that it's a bubble that is absorbing damage rather than a mitigation ability, meaning it scales like a heal rather than a mitigation... but okay, I already said that if OS turns out to not be good, I'd use Inferno instead. Your point for Breton was that it has more ressources than the others so you can spend more points on HP. If you take away adrenalin rush (which adds 34 stamina every 3s). than you compare 7 points which you gain per sec no matter if you use a skill or not with 3 points less per spell and a spell will also take 1s to use (animation). That's why I say your math is off. Yeah, I know they have the best ST regen. The problem is that ST isn't as required as MP for this build, so getting more MP is worth more. And, you're ignoring the mRes, which directly benefits tanking--the whole point of being Breton is for the mRes (assuming it scales.) Being Breton or Redguard isn't a big difference though anyway, they're both fine. The taunt doesn't last 5s it lasts 10s (last time I checked it) that means I have plenty of time to switch the bar to use immoveable where I 'm not even sure that I need it because at the other bar I have 3 dmg mititgation skills alone. But the nice thing is that when I switch to my 2H that I'm able to deal more dmg. I don't think I ever said 5s taunt.. but yeah, you can switch bars after you puncture everything if you really want...except it defeats the purpose of being a tank to begin with. The extra damage you do isn't worth it compared to a DPS build and by trying to do that extra damage you are making your build impossible to use as well as you should be able to... Than you say that Ash Field is better than Dark Talon, but I don't pick one over the other I use both. So I don't understand where you wanna go with that. And you say that I shouldn't focus on dmg because the group will do it where I agree but in the same post you say that I don't deal enough dmg. There's not enough room on the bar for 2 skills that are so similar... You say you'll use them together but to what purpose? You can use one or the other, and Ash Field is better so you should use it instead of Dark Talons. You don't deal enough damage to justify being a 2h-tank. Why not be a GOOD tank and then have a GOOD dps build when the situation requires DPS?? This is the confusing part to me. PS I won't make any further comments on that build because I think I have allready said what I wanted to say Well, that's a shame. I'd like to hear the reasons. If you change your mind--While trying to find an actual flaw or something that could be better with my build-- I do ask that you address some of the points I made with quotes rather than things that I never said. If you have a reason for my build being bad, or even the worst pve dk tank build ever, then please share so I can correct it.

In case you guys didn't notice the edit, I've put my favorite build in the 1st post of this thread. It's the one I'd like to hear critique of, if you're planning on constructively criticizing one of the builds, please do that one. The other 5 I posted up there are mostly to give people ideas. Thanks!

To get those numbers you'd need to be using both your bars at once, which doesn't seem possible because you're going to need to keep S&S on while tanking--mainly for the taunt. Somehow I'm not seeing the higher HP Reg? You mean the 5% extra from taking Dark Talons? :S I agree, OS isn't the best ability--but if it is going to give 5% ST per target then it's worth taking because there's not really a better option even if it is 5% capped then I'd probably take inferno there instead. @ 50 if it's 11.5x stronger then that's a 300 dmg shield on yourself (but the 40% stays for 750 total damage taken, since 40% of 750 = 300...so you only need to re-apply it on yourself every 750 damage, which is actually a lot since you'll be taking 56% less damage with the other two actives it turns into 40% off of the next 1340 damage taken... which is actually a huge amount of additional mitigation. I was wrong about the math on Obsidian Shield before, because the damage bubble is taking damage at the same time as you, so it should be calculated as a damage bubble rather than a flat % mitigation. They're going to try to make this game have more strategy than just raw numbers, that will include a couple mechanics where you need to do as much AOE damage as possible--but I think this will be rare. Most the time you're going to have order-of-importance fights where you need to kill a certain target fast to make the rest of the fight easier. This is great when your partners can incapacitate other targets for a long period of time (Agony/Rune Prison/Power Bash type stuff) and then you can burn down a single-target before switching to tank bar and killing the rest of the mob. You could be right, that AOE's needed more often, in which case I could put more AOE abilities on the bar and be fine.. This argument over AOE vs Single-Target being more important in PVE is very opinionated, since we have nothing to base it off of from ESO itself. Your 2H bar's not useless, sorry, it's kind of..pointless though. What's the point of taking tank abilities on your DPS bar? In other games hybrid tanks don't work well in hard fights as much as coordinated groups with set roles do, I feel like you're too jumbled for a real PVE build..but that's just opinion too. Redguard has best ST resources, which is only used by Puncture on my S&S bar and for Twin Slashes/Flurry on DW bar (that will only be used very rarely.) Breton has the benefit of all mRes as well as MP +cheaper spells which is more important than ST by far for my build. If channeling for 1.3s is too long then you shouldn't be trying to DPS at that moment, usually. I see where you're coming from, but it's the best single-target melee dmg ability out there. If it proves unusable for some reason then Entropy would be nice to throw on there with Searing Strike, Entropy, then Twin Slashes (with +15% dmg) before swapping bars would be awesome to help boost the first-target's kill speed. EDIT--- Actually, should probably cast Entropy before Searing Strike, and then Twin Slashes. Not only does it last longer, so it should be cast first, but I just realized that the +15% damage only applies to Magic abilities (so wouldn't apply to Twin Slashes) Agreed, I think snares and roots will work on some (if not most) of them. That's true about Low Slash, I never thought about it like that for boss fights! I'm going to try to incorporate that somehow in my next tank build (probably a Sorc one since I never make Sorc builds) I think Ash Field is better than Dark Talons in almost every way except for the AOE Dmg, but I'll leave the DPS to the DPS builds who are synergized up for it (Altmer+Sorce+Destro+Light Armor+Surge+Weakness to Elements = Lightning Splash doing so much more damage than you.) I believe it's better to just focus on the group survival while they focus on the killing. Searing Strike is a really powerful DOT (I think it's the only pure DOT without utility) even if it doesn't get all the bonuses that it could, since my 1st bar goal is single-target killer it's a must-have. Dragon Leap is definitely a good single-target killer, not only does it do a huge nuke but it also pushes back the other enemies so that you can focus on killing the main target before swapping to S&S. As for CC, I'd hope that one of the DPS or the Heals has a long-incapacitate. CC'ing to keep them on me isn't necessary except for in large groups, which as long as I can get close enough to them in Ash Field I'll have time to Puncture them all anyways--same goal as your one CC that's redundant IMO (Dark Talons). Magma armor's good, definitely. Your bars are both so similar though... I don't think the goal of your two bars are different enough to warrant having them both. You can get rid of Low Slash and Dark Talon on your S&S bar, move down Immovable and take either Inferno or Obsidian shield as well on that bar.. There's your complete tank build, better than either one of your tank-bars alone. And, viola, you have a whole extra bar for doing a real amount of AOE damage or for doing anything else you'd like. Our S&S bars aren't that much different, you realize, just Low Slash and Dark Talons for Immovable and Obsidian Shield... I think it's a much better tank-bar, and then you can improve your AOE bar (since I think it's possible that AOE damage could be just as important as single-target, it's a good idea) to actually do enough AOE damage to be beneficial to the group-- Maybe take Molten Weapons as well to help the group's total DPS since your goal of this bar is to help clear trash mobs. I am not trying to trash-talk you, we're both thinking similar thoughts--it's just your 2h bar needs more focus rather than trying to be hybrid 2h/Tank for no reason (since you have an actual tank bar already--and you're not using it to it's fully tanky potential either.) You know?

If you plan on being Dunmer I think a melee-weapon'd DK is the way to go. +7% fire damage is a really big number. You were looking for a Bow/DW Templar build, right? I've tried making a few of those and none of them came out very well, but that's because I always end up focusing more on the damage and turn it into a NB instead of a Temp because it synergizes so much better with Bow/DW spells. I don't think that Dunmer's the best choice for Bow+DW+Templar though... Any reason you want dunmer or templar specifically? What armor are you wanting to use?

It might be a clash of goals we want to achieve with that DK build compared to your DK build, but I'd love for you to pick apart my post explaining why my build works...it's this constructive criticism that will get us better, I want everyone to critique the builds as much as possible, this is the only way that we'll get better/clearer build strategies. So, if you could explain where you're coming from, like I did, then it would help me (and everyone else) out? I'm not trying to make it personal mate, the only criticism I put towards your build was supposed to be constructive, sorry if it offended you. I think that my build is a much better PVE build than yours, and I explained my reasoning. I really did put a lot of thought into that setup (as you can see by my long explanation of it.) You're being the antagonist by jumping to conclusions that I didn't think about it, and making big claims that it's the worst DK build you've ever seen... So, if you could explain your reasoning behind your conclusions, we'd all benefit from it. It could really be the worst DK build of all time for your goals, but until you tell me why... I do think it's the best possible dungeon tank with the abilities we have knowledge of.

Yeah, I need to make write ups for each of those builds, because this is ludicrous. I believe this is like the best PVE tank possible. I'll explain: I took Breton for the Magic Resistances to couple with the DK passive Magic Resistances so the armor doesn't need to enchant into MR that much. Also, it doesn't need to be enchanted for MP as much due to the slightly lower cost of spells and higher base MP. Orc/Redguard better tanks? You'll have to explain why, because I don't see it... Do you mean for the stamina or for the 5% health on orcs? :S You get more than 5% health on Breton through need-based stat distribution--you are able to allocate a lot more health stats as breton. The stamina regen is nice on Orc/Redguard but it doesn't seem that powerful really. Puncture spamming makes it easy to keep all targets focused on you at all times, just from running around and hitting each of them. There's no need for a gap closer as a tank in most PVE situations except for the initial pull, in which case you can use Fiery Reach in the DW bar then swap to S&S. You'll want to use the DW bar initially before each fight to get Molten Weapon's up anyway. The rest of the DW bar is for single-target DPS, when fights required you kill a certain enemy quick rather than just tank it. The S&S bar, other than puncture, isn't necessarily all about the mitigation-- Spiked Armor up keeps you getting 12% incrs to heals, Obsidian Shield (as well as Molten Weapons) should give you ~15+% stamina (more punctures) on each activation as well as the damage absorb group-wide that could really help, it's also powerful because with all the mitigation this build has, each point of healing on the bubble is multiplied by your mitigation, meaning if your healer's in trouble you really want this spell around to keep yourself alive. Immovable is taken more for the anti-CC than for the dmg-reduction, as the tank your positioning is extremely important, this is especially true because you don't want to bar-swap for the gap closer. Ash Field is amazing, it's better than Dark Talons because you can use it to help allies disappear completely, making the mobs focus entirely on you again (so, if--your example of the healer needing peels--not only will the 70% slow be plenty to allow the healer to get away, but if it's dire he can simply disappear with Ash Field. irons, you definitely jumped the gun without looking at the build. "Worst build ever" is also just a slap for no cause: Firstly, those 3+Ash Shield aren't for the mitigation exactly, *except when weighing Spiked Shield vs Dragon Blood*, the mitigation's just a bonus. If there was another form of mitigation, I'd take it, but Low Slash doesn't work very well and Reflective Scale instead of Spiked Shield would be too hard to keep up for the +12% healing received. There's not a better combo for synergizing the passives with. Flurry wouldn't be used while tanking, and the only times you'd be using the DW bar is in specific situations and pre-battle for Molten Weapons/Pull. It's rare (only during the fast single-target kills) to use the DW bar during combat, so saying that the S&S bar's just for buffs is the exact opposite of what it's for. Yeah, it's a pure-tanking build without DPS during combat.. Leave it to the DPS, having a tank that can manage everything with extreme ease is the #1 key to having a smooth dungeon. If you're in a situation where there's AOE damage, you most likely don't want to be out of your S&S bar...that'd be a sure-death, meaning your first bar's pointless, especially as the tank... where single-target quickness will be required to overcome certain mechanics. Ash Field + Dark Talons is a waste to take both of, Ash Field's so much better. Double Magma Armor is a waste. Ash Field + Dark Talons might be a waste completely for a "boss tank", even independently of each other in boss fights-- on boss fights I get the feeling they won't be CC-able and their attacks won't be able to miss or be passively dodged...but that's just an assumption from other games. Yeah, good call, as it is right now I'd have to bar-swap (which I wouldn't want to do in sticky situations) to get out fiery-reach (the problem is that there is no gap closer as a DK with S&S equipped). I wish there was a way to take inferno on the S&S bar but it's not worth moving anything around for PVE tanking. I'll work on getting a write-up for each build completed. It's a lot of writing (As you can see from this post) but it's also required when it comes to invisioning some of the builds working (as you can also see from this post, haha)

Yeah, definitely worth getting all the PVP passives. They're amazingcakes.

@David - Sorry for the DP. I agree with irons, your assessment's correct--it's just going to tickle them. Although, they were in a dungeon where the monsters had a lot higher health than normal. I'd say (based on what I've seen *cough*) that light+heavy attacks are a bit more powerful than you realize, but don't come close to active abilities. I just meant that there are better options for damage-spammers since Mage's Fury can only do the bigger hit once per fight unless the targets are healing up above 20% and getting knocked back down very often. Definitely a few builds could be 100% light/heavy attacks with utility spells only in the bar! I actually believe that this is what ZOS's going for, where all the actives are mostly for utility rather than the damage itself on the abilities. And, I don't just mean healers/supports/tanks doing this. If you look at almost every ability it's not just damage except for a select few. The thing is that a lot of the utility spells (ones that aren't about the damage) also do have damage on them so finding the balance between awesome utility and awesome damage is key. One example would be a Khajiit NB with a 2H, or maybe even better an Altmer Sorce with a Destro Staff. Weakness to Elements, Mark Target, Haste, Surge, Momentum, + the racial extra damage, and a few other spells that come in to directly support your melee damage. A resto staff build could do it really well on a nightblade with Haste and such to get your power attacks to heal you and throw a Lifesteal enchant on that staff..kaboom! It really depends on playstyle, you can either use the MP/ST to cast a direct damage spell or you can use it to buff your weapon attacks/debuff the enemy. The rest of your abilities will be like normal, mitigation and either separation or closure depending on need and etc.. Gosh, this game's such a masterpiece already...so many options. Thanks mate!! I hope you're not disappointed, I know it's hard to view another person's build and see exactly where they're coming from right away, but maybe one of them will stick out to someone!

Most of you already know what each ability does, so I don't need to put it in parenthesis, but I want you to really think about the implications of each ability synergizing with the rest of the builds abilities. These are all builds that I think will be close to the best (with minor tweaking) for what they're designed to do. My favorite (the best, in my opinion) build is the one in the original post of this thread-- I'll continue to edit that 1st post as I change it around. I hope these builds spark some interesting ideas for you guys: Khajiit – NB – DW+S&S – Heavy - PVP DW- Strategy = Stealth up to target and keep incapacitated as much as possible for the extra damage. Goal = Single target quick kills, will kill targets in light armor extremely fast. [*]Shadow Cloak – M (Allows you to get to target for veiled strike) [*]Veiled Strike – M (4s disable = extra dmg on 3 flurries in a row) [*]Flurry – S (spammed single-target dmg) [*]Teleport Strike – M (gap-close + 2s disable for extra dmg on 1 flurry) [*]Assassin's Blade – M (Finisher, when they're low) [*]Eye of Fear – U (Ranged Fear[They cower on the spot] and 5% incrs damage taken from ALL sources! Amazing for killing single-targets.) S&S- Strategy = Keep Blur/Immovable up for mitigation, keep Strife up for heals, Summon Shade up for mitigation and heals, and Defensive Posture for reflecting spells and blocking better. Goal = When things get hairy, switch to this bar and survive a really long time. [*]Blur – M (Incrs dodge chance) [*]Immovable – S (dmg mitigation + unable to be incapacitated) [*]Defensive Posture – S (active-reflects 1 spell, passive-incrs's block effectiveness and reduces cost) [*]Strife – M (Direct dmg + HOT, damage is spammable while HOT won't stack) [*]Summon Shade – M (Weakens target by 15% while under attack, helps tank in PVE, does some damage) [*]Soul Strike – U (Hard-hitting DOT and powerful snare[80%]) (---------------------------------------) Breton – DK – DW+S&S – Heavy - PVE DW- Strategy = Only used for DPS when it's called for, pre-buff with Molten Weapons, and pull the first kill-target of a mob with Fiery-Reach. Goal = capable of doing decent single-target damage, giving some group support, and able to pull a mob when necessary. [*]Molten Weapons – M (buff, affects whole friendly party) [*]Fiery Reach – M (pull enemy towards you[and towards whole group] [*]Searing Strike – M (Keep the DOT up) [*]Twin Slashes – S (Keep the DOT up) [*]Flurry – S (Spammable) [*]Dragon Leap – U (Huge direct nuke, also it's fucking awesome..lol) S&S- Strategy = Taunts targets to keep them on you, slows them a lot to keep them from running, while having the best possible mitigation on top of good synergy with passives. Goal = TANK! [*]Ash Field – M (Yeah..you guys know all these, so kind of pointless to write out.) [*]Immovable – S [*]Puncture – S (Reduces target's armor, works well in conjunction with DW 2nd bar.) [*]Spiked Armor – M [*]Obsidian Shield – M [*]Magma Armor – U (---------------------------------------) Argonian – Nightblade – Bow and Resto – Heavy - PVE and PVP! Bow- Strategy = Apply DOTs and HOT, keep Shade summoned, use Scatter Shot when a single target is too close to you. Use Volley in AOE situations where you're not under pressure. Goal = Nice DPS with ranged while on a NB. [*]Cripple – M (Slow + DOT) [*]Strife – M (Dmg + HOT) [*]Summon Shade – M (DOT + Tank in PVE + Weaken) [*]Scatter Shot – S (KB + Disorient) [*]Volley – S (AOE Dmg-Spam) [*]Soul Strike – U (Single target big damage over 3s with an 80% slow. Does more against Chilled target, so put ice enchant on the bow.) Resto- Strategy = Swap to this bar to buff your group, or when you yourself are in a crappy situation and need to try to get out through tanking. Goal = Group support and self-survival. [*]Blessing of Protection – M (Heal + Armor & Resistance Buff) [*]Blur – M (Dodge buff) [*]Immovable – S (Flat reduction buff + Anti-disabling) [*]Purge – M (Remove 2 negative effects) [*]Grand Healing – M (Quick Heal) [*]Warhorn – U (+25% max MP&ST for 30s) (----------------------------------------) *UPDATED 10-26-'13* Dunmer – DK – Heavy – DW + Resto - PVP + PVE DW- Strategy = Attack order: Fiery Reach > Entropy > Searing Strike > Twin Strikes > Flurry Spam until dead. Goal = Single Target Killin!! [*]Fiery Reach – M (Bring them in) [*]Entropy - N/A (DOT + Magicka + 15% next magic dmg ability) [*]Searing Strike – M (single-target DOT) [*]Twin Strikes - S (single-target Dmg + DOT) [*]Flurry – S (single-target spam) [*]Soul Strike - U (Single-target heavy DOT) Resto- Strategy = Keep the group buffed Goal = Group battle support! [*]Obsidian Shield - M (Absorbs %dmg taken by all friendlies in area) [*]Molten Weapons - M (Buffs friendlies in the area's Power) [*]Blessing of Protection - M (+Armor and +Resistances for friendly's in area) [*]Regeneration - M (Small heal + HOT) I wish I could take Dragon Blood or Spiked Armor here to increase self-healing received by 12%(huge) but it doesn't fit.. Maybe take Spiked Shield instead of Molten Weapons and move Molten Weapons up to bar 1 instead of Flurry. [*]Grand Healing - M (Hopefully, between the buffs and spiked armor, this is the only heal that your party will need.) [*]Magma Armor – U (Perfect for group battles! *Oh Sh!t button+Big damage*) (---------------------------------------) Argonian – Temp – Destro+Resto – 5 Light & 2 Heavy for the +10% crit chance on spells. - Group PVP Destro- Strategy = Between Sun Fire and Piercing Javelin, you are a single-target kiting god. Solar Flare is an amazing AOE DMG spell. Since everything you do is from a distance, Siege Shield helps you (and your party) take a lot less potential damage from siege-weapons as well as from all ranged attacks. Eclipse is to counter single-target casters if you get in a caster-battle. Goal = AOE damage and single-target utility, with some group-support as well. [*]Solar Flare – M [*]Sun Fire – M [*]Piercing Javelin – M [*]Siege Shield – M [*]Eclipse – M [*]Warhorn – U Resto- Strategy = When you get surrounded and can't keep them all at bay, swap to this bar and spam Sun-Shield until out of danger. If your group members are dying on the front lines then this bar's also meant for being able to heal your entire party pretty well, and also dispel. Goal = More survival and group heals. This is actually this build's main bar, the first bar is mostly utility. This is the typical "healer" character. [*]Sun Shield – M [*]Cleansing Ritual – M [*]Rune Focus – M [*]Healing Ritual – M [*]Regeneration – M [*]Nova – U It's hard for me to see this last build working with the MP and such, but I know there's a lot of potential for greatness hidden in it with minor tweaking.

Morphs don't look like they change that much TBH. The ones that I've seen have all been either "refund either a resource or some health" "effects more targets" "does a bit more of what it already does at the cost of taking away a part of what it already does" So, we can probably change our morphs around to help get our MP/ST ratios perfected, which is nice, but idk how much of an impact on actual playstyle it'll have.

Is this is the accurate tooltip? Defensive Posture: Activated: Reflects the next spell projectile back to the attacker. While slotted, increases the effectiveness of block, and reduces the Stamina cost of blocking. TF sucks, but I just thought I'd ask since this was released more recently than the tooltips on here (and it doesn't make sense to me to have a slotted ability with no active). http://tamrielfoundry.com/2013/09/pax-skill-overview/ ps- I am working on getting my build put up on the first post... I'll let you know when I do, I'm fixing up 6 different builds that I think all have amazing potential. So far I'm happy with all the numbers and such for enchants/everything on only 2 of them. XD

Yeah, the only thing I really noted was the Soul stuff. I love how this list shows us just how many options there are though.. 293 different options. This means there are roughly 296 BILLION builds possible (If you consider all the passives/actives as one lump, which includes mix/matching all the passives --which doesn't really apply-- still cool though! )

My guess would be 5+ as well. I was thinking if I was playing a sorce I'd still use 5 Heavy and just 2 Light. Why are you going with 2H instead of DW for your damage? DW seems a lot better for quick kills, stronger in both single-target and the AOE is spammable. I would go DW for killing easy things, but also for Hidden Blade to start kiting a single mob. I'm sure there'll be some fights where you need to kite the target as a group while killing it, so you'll want at least one ranged slow that you can spam-the interrupt's nice too. On your S&S bar-- definitely use something from Draconic Power. Burning Heart (+12% healing received) is way too good to pass up. I'd suggest swapping Obsidian Shield for Spiked Armor, I don't think Obsidian Shield will stay on long enough to be that great except for the group-support, but if you're a good tank then you shouldn't need to support the group that much anyway--leave that to the healers. For PVE are you going to swap Low Slash with Puncture for the Taunt, and just keep Ash Field up for the dodge? I think you'll still be alright even if you don't have quite as much mitigation -- It'll allow the healer to focus more on you anyway, so it'll make dungeons go way smoother even if you are taking a tad more damage. Elitists FTW! First thing I noticed is that you don't have Dark Exchange. In a build that is highly MP based and also doesn't use any ST on actives, I'd take Dark Exchange for sure. Even if you cast it for one second to get 23% MP/HP and then you move/cast something else (canceling the cast) it could save your ass in so many ways it's amazing. Mage's Fury isn't what you think it is anymore, it doesn't work like a ranged Assassin's Blade anymore-- Instant28m range36 Magicka(lvl 50 - 252 magicka) – deals 6(123) shock dmg- explode for 18(310) shock dmg if the target falls below 20% health within 4sec- explosion deal 40% of its initial damage to enemies within 4m of the target It's still good, but you can't spam it on single-targets anymore. It's actually better now, but it's harder to use--and actually pretty similar to Daedric Curse except you can spam this (since you can only have 1 curse up at a time). So, this probably upsets your whole build..but remember that you'll do a good amount of damage with light/heavy attacks with your destro staff--so I wouldn't worry about a direct damage active ability so much. I actually really like your build, I can see it being really functional in a lot of situations, you're just going to have a lot of trouble on things that can disable you (so taking immovable would be an epic fix). PS- What's your 2nd Ult. going to be?

Bumping this because it's been updated a bit.

I don't think Mark Target would overcome mitigations from active abilities, but I wonder if it overcomes armor even? If it doesn't, then using it on a heavy armor would be good. If it does overcomes armor as well as resistances, then it would be best used on a Medium Armor build that relies on dodges and stealth rather than what I call "easy mitigation".

How effective would Mark Target be if only a few of your abilities are magic damage? I feel like if you were fighting a sorc or DK then it'd just screw you more than help you. Thinking about Mark Target... This might be the answer to fighting mages as a Heavy Armor user compared to Light Armor. Their resistances won't mean squat, and yours aren't much to begin with so your total mitigation will outweigh theirs immensely! Thanks! So that gives magic an even bigger advantage over heavy users if they're using S&S too.

It could be that Armor and Mitigation are all damage while Dodge is melee only and Resistances is only Magic/Ranged? Melee(-5m abilities) can only miss while ranged can only be actively dodged? I hope the opposite, I hope that Armor doesn't reduce magic damage taken. This would be amazing for creating a skill gap between people who specced well and people who didn't..which I like. You'd need to work a lot harder in order to be decent at all.

For those of you who are clueless about builds, here's my view on ESO builds in one simple go-go-dancing post: *Updated 12-16-'13* Viable roles for each class for group combat-- 1st role: DK: Draconic Power- Tank (Reduce both physical and magical damage, root groups and self-heal from groups.) NB: Assassination- Physical (Melee or Bow) DPS Sorc: Storm Calling- Ranged Magical DPS Temp: Restoring Light- Heals 2nd role: DK: Earthen Heart- Support (Control enemies and Buff party) NB: Shadow- Self-Survival Sorc: Dark Magic- Healer+Control Temp: Dawn's Wrath- Support (Increase party's DPS and make the melee enemies miss a lot or the casters unable to cast.) 3rd role: DK: Ardent Flame- Close-range magic DPS NB: Siphoning- Caster DPS Sorc: Summoning- Pets help spread incoming dmg, you keep yourself and your pets alive while also doing a bit of DPS. Temp: Aedric Spear- Ranged and close quarters DPS hybrid. DK should be in heavy armor for Draconic Power- with 1H&Shield. Light Armor for Earthen Heart- with a Restoration staff for more control and support and light armor for Ardent Flame- with a Destruction staff for more DPS. NB should be in medium armor for Assassination- with a melee weapon and Shadow- with a bow. NB should be in light armor with either destro or resto staff depending on if you want more survival or more damage. Sorc should be in light armor for all builds, using either a destro or resto staff. An exception to this would be a sneaky-healer build with medium armor and resto staff who uses Dark Exchange a lot. Templar has the most diverse options. To heal they should use Resto staff & Light armor, to tank they should use Heavy armor & 1H/Shield, to DPS they should either use medium with 2H, DW, or Bow bars (2 out of these, 1 for each bar) for physical damage, and then use light armor and a destruction staff for magical damage. If all of this is correct, which I think it is, then I would say that the best choice of armor (and therefore the best choice of weapons) is easy for each class. Logically, it's as follows: <strike>DK: Light armor, Destro-Ardent Flame + Resto-Earthen Heart.</strike> NB: Medium Armor, DW-Assassination + Bow-Assassination. Sorc: Light Armor, Destro-Storm Calling + Resto-Dark Magic. Templar: Light Armor, Resto-Restoring Light + Destro-Dawn's Wrath. The only problem with this, is that there aren't any tanks. DK make the best tanks, as they have a whole bar dedicated to it. So, instead of them playing as a close-range magic DPS or a support/healer class, I strongly would encourage all DK to be tanks. Looking at the numbers, they don't make that great of DPS or strictly support/healers anyway..either due to the need to be in melee range with light armor, or due to the lack of resources compared to other classes for casting MP based spells. Not only this, but there are already 2 classes who's best options are using Destro/Resto staves in light armor, so the gear will be much more expensive than Heavy--which will be the least desired gear. Thusly, this is more logical for several reasons: DK: Heavy armor, 1H&Shield-Draconic Power + 2H-Earthen Heart. Of course this all changes when we're talking about soloing. While soloing, the build choices are easier IMO: Half DPS, and half control if medium or heavy armor -or- half heals if light armor. Meaning the only good options are really: DK: Heavy Armor + 2H with Earthen Heart and 2H abilities (Not ardent flame instead of 2H for DPS because they are spell power abilities rather than weapon power, also the MP ratio would be way off if bar#1 was still S&S.) (Since it's heavy armor--since you'll hopefully want to tank as a DK, resto-staff isn't as viable..so control+dps > heals+dps because of armor synergy.) NB: Medium Armor + Bow with Shadow and Bow abilities. (Not Siphoning instead of Shadow, because they are spell power not weapon power and would do such low damage that it's not worth it.) (Because it's medium armor, resto staff isn't a good choice--you want that melee weapon for synergies--and this means that heals+dps isn't an option.) Sorc: Light Armor + Resto staff with Summoner and Resto abilities. (Dark Magic with a Destro staff would be a good alternative to Summoning+Resto staff, if you prefer damage + control more than damage + healing.) Temp: Light Armor + Destro staff with both Aedric Spear and Restoring light abilities. (Because templars have class-heals, you can just use that bar instead of a resto staff to fulfill the healing part of the DPS+Healing combo. Another option would be to use Aedric Spear + Dawn's Wrath, still with a destro staff, to control+dps instead of heal+dps.) .... As far as Ultimates go, here's a really over-simplified breakdown of the ultimates: As far as Ults go, like irons said it really depends on situations. I won't go into too much detail but this is basically the breakdown that I see: Nova, DK Standard, Storm Atronarch, and Soul Shred are probably the best for most AOE situations. Magma Armor, Negate Magic, Nova or Rite of Passage for defense. Dragon Leap, Death Stroke, Overload, and Consuming Darkness are all good for specific things, Dragon Leap is one of my favorites for breaching keeps and knocking people off keep walls. I also really like Highborn and Hitskin because they're extremely simple. Summon Bear/Ancestral Guardian are amazing for PVE. Battlecry/Berserker Rage/Powercharge are really good. Eye of Fear and Dragonskin I'm undecided on, they will either be really good... or not ever worth taking IMO. Meteor and Soul Strike seem good for Spell Power builds that want a Dragon Leap that they don't need to be in the frey with, or a nice single-target damage/snare. I LOVE Barrier as a healer/support character (the passive you get from it is nice as well.) and War Horn is also a top-notch group support ability. I think in any well-functioning group for PVP there should be at least 1 person with War Horn and 1 person with Barrier. Dawnbreaker's probably only good for Daedra PVE. .... Cheers.

Yeah, it's because they'll have such high effective health points (due to mitigation) that the regen will seem like a lot in comparison. It's too hard to tell right now, because we don't know the #'s for armor, the #'s for resistances, or how long fights will last on average (how much regen comes into play.) Once we know those things, we'll be able to figure out how stat distribution comparing light or medium armor (about 20% less required stats in either ST or MP, is my guess) compared to heavy armor...so we'd be able to put 20% more stats into health..but how does that compare for overall Effective HP when you factor in armor...and that you'll require more magicka resistance on your heavy armor to make up for not having the light armor... It all boils down to getting the maximum effective HP without sacrificing MP/ST, so depending on which one allows you to get that EFFECTIVE HP up the most, is what the best armor will be.. Definitely either Light or Heavy (my guess), since Medium has lower armor and zero resistance passives either... Heavy will be obviously better for mitigation, but if you can allocate enough stats into HP from going in a different armor type then it could make up more than the difference.

Great post. I believe it will be base + % + constant (lower result.) The reason I think so is because the 2nd one, 7.6% regen per second is too much... A templar spamming solar flare for ~300 mp ever 2 seconds would be 122 + 122 + 64 (@1600 x .04).. for a total of 308 mp/2 seconds. Infinite spamming in this case? It's too hard to say at this point, but either way I'm leaning back towards a 100% Magicka Build... Unlimited casting of higher spell cost abilities (like The Konk was saying) is amazeballs... Perhaps Templar Destro/Resto in Light as High Elf = Sexcommander. Nightblade + 2H + Restoring Aura from nearby Templar + Medium Armor = Unlimited ST on pretty much anything if you get kills often enough.. I really wonder how long fights will last though, definitely as a DK tank the health regen will be powerful in all but the biggest disadvantage fights..unkillable in 1v1.. BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARDS!

I'd at least throw Volley in there though. The thing is that there's not any stronger (as far as first-number goes) AOE than Solar Flare already, so you might want to just spam it. Spear Shards requires input from a friend for your buff, I'd personally use Entropy in between each one for the +15% damage on the Mage Guild's passive (after casting a mage guild ability you get +15% damage to next ability). Entropy also helps with the MP burn you mentioned. If there was a stronger AOE attack then it'd be a good idea, but it's only really worth doing that in very highly coordinated situations where you can do it before they use an Ultimate. This would apply well to single targets as well, given the right coordination. For group fights you're almost always better off just spamming Solar Flare because if it's not hitting itself then it'll be getting hit almost as soon as it's used anyway.

You have two builds with the same goal on each, no AOE let alone a ranged AOE..or any team support whatsoever. I wouldn't want you in my crew <Cyrodiil Squad>! Yeah, you'd do good single target damage but it's not very functional outside of that specific goal..too much overlap between the two builds as well. I know you're not that in to NB's though.. I think that build you posted is what most NB users are going to build like...and they're gonna get $h!t on all day! ^.^

That leaves a lot unanswered for! Nightblade – Bow and Resto – Heavy – Argonian Bow- Cripple – M (Slow + DOT) Strife – M (Dmg + HOT) Summon Shade – M (DOT + Tank in PVE + Weaken) Scatter Shot – S (KB + Disorient) Volley – S (AOE Dmg-Spam) Soul Strike – U (Single target big damage over 3s with an 80% slow. Does more against Chilled target, so put ice enchant on the bow.) Resto- Blessing of Protection – M (Heal + Armor & Resistance Buff) Blur – M (Dodge buff) Immovable – S (Flat reduction buff + Anti-disabling) Purge – M (Remove 2 negative effects) Grand Healing – M (Quick Heal) Warhorn – U (+25% max MP&ST for 30s) Instead of Scatter Shot I might put in a direct damage, because I think it'd be harder to beat a pure caster than melee with this build.

Thanks, I haven't really put dodge-roll and anti-NB into that perspective! I'm glad we're all seem to agree that Immovable's awesome, as well. So... we just need a build that can kill OR overcome: a caster dps, melee dps, a healer, and be able to at least escape a tank...plus it needs to have the ability to spam an AOE from a distance without being MP or ST starved. We need enough ST to dodge roll a lot and enough MP to be able to pad for emergencies, but we don't want Light or Medium armor because Heavy will be huge difference against melee and we also like immovable.. .... I've got classes until 5:15 tonight... but I'll see you guys then!

Yeah, if I could get Veiled Strike off without it then I wouldn't have taken it.