Viability of non-Magicka Builds

[Chrono]

So, let's cut to the chase. Magicka, like all attributes, rises with each level, as do magicka costs for certain abilities. The power of these spells is also based on your maximum Magicka, as we've learned. The ratio is such that, with no investments in Magicka, you're getting slightly more efficient and stronger from level 1 to 50.

 

So, what happens if you make a character that focuses their level-up attribute bonuses entirely on Stamina (with a dash of Health)? How viable would such a build be? Would maximum weapon damage be a useful, or even desirable method of play?

 

I don't think just any build would be able to work this concept, but I do have one in mind - a Redguard Nightblade, focusing on Medium Armor, Dual Wielding, Archery, and the Shadow Tree. With this build, most if not all of the damage comes from the boosted DPS of your at-will attacks and the higher regeneration / pool of Stamina provided by the Redguard race. Higher Stamina pools and recovery from Medium Armor results in a highly mobile character that's much better at blocking and dodging than magicka-focused builds. In addition, the small magicka pool the character has access to can be used almost exclusively for evasion and stunning powers, i.e. getting a breather while Stamina recovers and setting up powerful attacks.

 

In addition to all the above reasons, higher Stamina results in longer Stealth duration, which coupled with Medium Armor means you'll be able to stealth easily and quickly in PvE, especially with a few nice passive Morph choices. Plus, you'll be able to run for longer periods of time, which from my experience with Skyrim is a great help. I don't fast travel, so being able to get from point A to point B in a reasonable amount of time is key.

 

Naturally you don't need to be a Redguard for the build to work, but it's the best race for it in my opinion. If you're in the Dominion, Khajiit is a solid choice, and for the Ebonheart Pact the best you'll get is maybe the Dunmer, or perhaps Argonians.

 

So, thoughts? Would this be a viable approach to the game? Would it work in PvP as well as PvE?

[Theoryexpert]

Going max stamina is totally viable. I plan to do it myself. I do not think you can create a good build without using class skills though, which use Magicka. You can easily put 30 in stamina, and 0 in magicka, and still have enough magicka for some important class abilities.

[Thal]

I too will be placing preference on Stamina in my build. (I've finally decided upon my build as of last night).However, I won't be neglecting magicka entirely and still will be placing some attribute points and some amount from gear enchantments into increasing my magicka pool.Whilst stating that, I also feel inclined to mention that your choice of armour (and thereby of armour passives) can be at odds with your stat or attribute choice (e.g. medium armour but placing more attribute and enchants into magicka) so it's not necessarily just a matter of which "stat".Ultimately though, I concur very much so with TheoryExpert concerning the fact that if you do not utilise both resources, given the utility of class skills, in the best or most efficient way you can achieve, you will not have a very successful build. Making the very most of both your resource pools to use abilities of both natures will likely be key to victory, especially in PvP. Of course, that is much much easier said than done. Keep in mind too that you don't overestimate the utility of dodge, sprint and block. They have a role to play in some builds but in some builds stamina may prove better used if reserved almost entirely for certain abilities. But again, that is highly dependent on the aim of your build.

 

Some people may tell you that complete reliance on magicka may be possible in this game, but I am wagering that given the information known to us so far, there will be plenty of foreseeable downfalls to such builds too - just as a build that ignores magicka entirely would have its failings.

[Chrono]

My goal with this build is not to completely ignore Magicka, but to see it is a tertiary quality compared to Health and Stamina. Powers like Blur, Shadow Cloak, and Cripple would be evasion and damage enablers, rather that sources of DPS. Given the soft-cap of points invested in Health/Magicka/Stamina, I would probably place 30 in Stamina and the other 19 in Health, with none in Magicka.

 

For one, disregarding Magicka makes Shadow Cloak much stronger in my opinion. It's a risky power for most Nightblade builds because it stops their Magicka recovery while active, but if your build is not dependent of magicka for damage and combat viability, it suddently becomes a LOT more useful. Specifically, it becomes a 'breather' for your Health and Stamina regeneration to kick in, and for your weapon cooldowns to go down. That's how I see it, anyway.

 

I feel like putting points in Health with this build would be more useful than putting them in Magicka, since durability will be necessary in Medium Armor, and because I don't need Magicka-based damage for any of my abilities. Moreover, with the Fighter's Guild class powers, I can fill up part of my power bar with Stamina-based powers, some of which do Magic-type damage, giving me some useful flexibility despite my focused build.

[Tarrasq]

I was thinking of making a orc speed troll build focusing on stamina...to run away.  An orc, in full medium armor with a bow, is faster than anything else on foot.  I'd use nightblade movment abilities to stay ahead, and for dots.  Very stamina intensive and magica will be a tertiary concern as health may be more important to outlast opponents.

[Tidezen]

Given what we know so far it seems totally viable. in addition to the other NB skills you mention, don't forget Haste, good one to spend magicka on without feeling like a spell.I'm going the opposite direction (pure magicka nightblade), but I hope your build works out great!

[Chrono]

Thanks Tidezen, I hope your build works out for you too. I feel like Magicka builds will probably be stronger than Stamina builds, but honestly I couldn't care less if my build isn't 'optimal'.

 

Currently the Skills I think would be nice to have are: Blur, Haste, Shadow Cloak, Veiled Strike (for morph passive mostly), Siphoning Strikes, and perhaps Drain Power. I feel like the Siphoning Skills are a bit too flashy for my tastes, and are more suited for Magicka builds, but faster Stamina recovery is very useful and if I'm specced for weapon damage the debuff from Siphoning Strikes won't be that much of a deal-breaker.

 

Obviously Evasion will be in my Skill bar 24/7, and I might put some Fighter's Guild Skills in there as well - I love the fact that they're based on Stamina. Does anyone know if their damage / effectiveness is based on Magicka or Stamina? That would be nice to know.

[Eol]

The best abilities tend to be class abilities, which require magicka, so I think magicka will be very important. Unlike many mmorpgs where skills are time-constrained via cooldowns etc, in ESO skills are resource-constrained. Its hard for me to see how a build using only stamina will compete with a magicka build or a balanced build. Now if weapons had ultimate abilities, and if the abilities for weapons were strengthened, that could be different, but for now, it seems like magicka or balanced is the way to go. FWIW.

[Chrono]

The best abilities tend to be class abilities, which require magicka, so I think magicka will be very important. Unlike many mmorpgs where skills are time-constrained via cooldowns etc, in ESO skills are resource-constrained. Its hard for me to see how a build using only stamina will compete with a magicka build or a balanced build. Now if weapons had ultimate abilities, and if the abilities for weapons were strengthened, that could be different, but for now, it seems like magicka or balanced is the way to go. FWIW.

 

Some of the better abilities ARE magicka-based, but remember that Stamina determines weapon damage, the effectiveness of stamina-based abilities like weapon abilities (other than Restoration and Destruction Staff, of course). In addition, the Fighter's Guild skill like has four Skills that use Stamina, and an Ultimate ability that's pretty damn awesome. I think they designed this specifically so that Stamina-specced builds could still fill out their skill bars without having to rely on Class trees.

 

I never said my build would be top-tier - indeed, I expect Stamina/Health builds to be only moderately effective - but I'd rather play a fun build that fits my RP than a powerful build that I'm not into.

[Theoryexpert]

You want at least a couple magicka abilities to use your magicka pool, otherwise it will just sit there.

 

Some of the better abilities ARE magicka-based, but remember that Stamina determines weapon damage, the effectiveness of stamina-based abilities like weapon abilities (other than Restoration and Destruction Staff, of course). In addition, the Fighter's Guild skill like has four Skills that use Stamina, and an Ultimate ability that's pretty damn awesome. I think they designed this specifically so that Stamina-specced builds could still fill out their skill bars without having to rely on Class trees.

 

I never said my build would be top-tier - indeed, I expect Stamina/Health builds to be only moderately effective - but I'd rather play a fun build that fits my RP than a powerful build that I'm not into.

You should have something to use your magicka pool at least a little bit.

[ryacual]

on a second build I might try for fun is a minimum magicka sorcerer.  orc/heavy armor.

berserker rage;bound armor,winged twilight,puncture,shield charge, defensive posture

 

overload,cleave,momentum, critical charge, lightning form, immovable. it might be better to keep bound armor on both bars but im not even sure if having bound armor is worth it. was planning on morphing into bound armaments but I fear the increase to armor wont be large enough to take a skill slot. This build I can focus entirely on stamina while still using magicka for something

[Chrono]

You want at least a couple magicka abilities to use your magicka pool, otherwise it will just sit there.

 

You should have something to use your magicka pool at least a little bit.

 

True, and I do plan to use Magicka, but not for 'attack' powers. Blur's going to see a lot of use for my character, that's for sure.

 

 

 

on a second build I might try for fun is a minimum magicka sorcerer.  orc/heavy armor.

berserker rage;bound armor,winged twilight,puncture,shield charge, defensive posture

 

overload,cleave,momentum, critical charge, lightning form, immovable. it might be better to keep bound armor on both bars but im not even sure if having bound armor is worth it. was planning on morphing into bound armaments but I fear the increase to armor wont be large enough to take a skill slot. This build I can focus entirely on stamina while still using magicka for something

 

The Sorcerer class seems like one that lends itself heavily towards a Magicka-oriented build. Their crowd control and mass damage class skiils are quite powerful, and their passives tend to lend themselves well to using the Destruction Staff. I don't really see what sort of an advantage you'd get with a Stamina-oriented Sorcerer that you couldn't replicate with a Dragonknight instead.

 

Part of why I'm choosing the Nightblade for this build is because of its passives that make stealth and evasion more feasible. If I wanted to make a Stmaina-based Tank, I'd go Dragonknight for their enhanced durability and awesome chain-grab power.

[ryacual]

my main is a dragon knight so I figured to try something different for the second character, im assuming we may have more than one character.  It isn't of absence of magicka its just you don't need to put any points into magicka or really worry about replenishing magicka.  The ultimates increase attack damage with no expense to magicka.  The first row is using magicka just for upkeep for the shield and summon.  The summon can also add an additional 10% to health regen(unless that passive is for the summon?) to go along with the orc and heavy armor passives. The goal of this character is to gain ultimate, concentrate on actively blocking and timing for best gains paired with cleave.  I haven't gotten a chance to try the game at all so there is a very very strong possibility I will not ever make a build like this but its still fun to think about how it might work. 

 

oh and regardless of what class you pick everything but the ultimate requires magicka, and dragon knight doesn't have skills like bound armor or winged twilight that are always active as long as that skill bar is up.  I know eventually this game will end up like every other mmo where everyone has the same 4 or 5 builds but maybe I can find something that is "fun" to play.

[Guest Gooar]

Does investing into magicka actually improve damage of the magicka - draining skills (class - skills)?

[Speely]

Does investing into magicka actually improve damage of the magicka - draining skills (class - skills)?

Yes, and the strength of heals, though to what extent I do not know. Same with Stamina and weapon skills. I also do not know if high Magicka and/or Stamina affects magnitude of success for non-damage, non-heal skills. For example, I do not know if high Magicka affects the miss chance caused by Blur.Chrono: I am going Stamina-focused/low magic as well, perhaps even more so than you hehe. I believe it can work. I am taking the Templar route for Restoring Aura (drool) and seeing how ridiculous Medium+Redguard is on top of that. Your approach with Siphoning Strikes sounds super-viable as well. Good luck!

[BigSteel]

IMO, it seems that the longer the fight, the better stamina is.

[Areodon]

I will go nb redguard as well. Enhanced white hits will provide for most of my damage. I will max stam up to soft cap. Bare in mind that active defences will spend stam , therefore its better to relly on magica def utilities and probably executes. If u take all that in consideration ull see that magica pool will still be significant.

[Guest peener vajeener]

this post is commenting on non magicka builds in pvp

 

I did better on a stam based two hand DK in med armor using crit charge and basic attacks, only using dragons blood and firey weapons as fire and forget(recast every 30 seconds or so) than 90% of all these magicka based nuke spammers in pvp.

 

Maybe its just what im comfortable with but I could run into a group and be focus fired and still kill a few people before needing to retreat, every DK I saw that based their dmg output on their magicka pool got instakilled in under 3 seconds.

 

The cost of dodging, sprinting, blocking and CC breaking is greatly exgerated by this community, but to be fair i am in med armor.

 

When will people realize min/maxing has nothing to do with pvp, min/maxing only applies to ideal pve situations(even the pros @ elitest jerks have aknowledged this).

[Theoryexpert]

this post is commenting on non magicka builds in pvp

 

I did better on a stam based two hand DK in med armor using crit charge and basic attacks, only using dragons blood and firey weapons as fire and forget(recast every 30 seconds or so) than 90% of all these magicka based nuke spammers in pvp.

 

Maybe its just what im comfortable with but I could run into a group and be focus fired and still kill a few people before needing to retreat, every DK I saw that based their dmg output on their magicka pool got instakilled in under 3 seconds.

 

The cost of dodging, sprinting, blocking and CC breaking is greatly exgerated by this community, but to be fair i am in med armor.

 

When will people realize min/maxing has nothing to do with pvp, min/maxing only applies to ideal pve situations(even the pros @ elitest jerks have aknowledged this).

 

Nobody knows yet true top tier builds, its all just speculation and logical guessing from limited beta play. As for min/maxing: thats just another way of saying optimizing builds. Optimizing a build is always going to be more effective than one that is non synergetic and makes no sense. And optimization means more in PVP than anywhere else.

[Guest peener vajeener]

I can agree with you for the most part but I have always viewed min/maxing in the traditional sense as being PvE specific, simply due to single focus build theory(max dmg/heal output, max dmg mit/survivabiltiy)

 

While in PvP, you use multiple focus build theory(dmg, heals, survivability, cc, anti-cc, etc). PvP always has been and always will be situational and there is no such thing as an optimal build in PvP. Especially in PvP that uses resource managment, having an "Optimal" PvP build just ensures your build is themed to your playstyle. For instance I could spend forever designing an optimal build only to have you come at me with the "worst" build and destroy me due to player skill, situational awareness and superior resource management.

 

Not to mention due to the zerg nature of RvR style PvP there is no real way to gauge individual build efficiency.

[Theoryexpert]

I can agree with you for the most part but I have always viewed min/maxing in the traditional sense as being PvE specific, simply due to single focus build theory(max dmg/heal output, max dmg mit/survivabiltiy)

 

While in PvP, you use multiple focus build theory(dmg, heals, survivability, cc, anti-cc, etc). PvP always has been and always will be situational and there is no such thing as an optimal build in PvP. Especially in PvP that uses resource managment, having an "Optimal" PvP build just ensures your build is themed to your playstyle. For instance I could spend forever designing an optimal build only to have you come at me with the "worst" build and destroy me due to player skill, situational awareness and superior resource management.

 

Not to mention due to the zerg nature of RvR style PvP there is no real way to gauge individual build efficiency.

 

I agree with what you are saying and I prefer to use the term optimization rather than min/max because its easier to comprehend. Optimization does not mean being focused into one role, it means being optimized for whatever it is you are trying to accomplish. If youre trying to be an awesome sniper in zerg battles, but are using two melee weapons, thats pretty suboptimal to the point of idiocy.

 

Also you have to take skill out of the equation when designing builds, that varies from player to player and is not controllable. There will definitely be optimal builds for accomplishing specific goals. There will be top tier 1on1 builds, top tier healing builds, top tier versatile builds, top tier ranged builds, top tier support builds, etc. There are many different ways to play the game, and each way will have optimal and sub-optimal builds.

[Guest peener vajeener]

Agreed.

 

Speaking of other stamina based builds, have you tested any stam based bow builds? I was considering it but the damage output of the bow is just embarassing even when shadowcloaking(with crit morph) I just could figured out why bow damage output is even less than the resto staff in both PvE and PvP

[Theoryexpert]

It was hard to gauge anything last beta. According to the stat sheet, all players in cyrodil had roughly the same stats regardless of armor type or where they spent their stat points. It was weird, could have just been a display error, or was actually how it was. The only way to really gauge anything was outside of cyrodil in PVE.

[Guest peener vajeener]

yeah, a lot of people are now taking that stat error as official scaling stats(even going so far as to say real 50s are the same as scaled ones LOL) but I was talking more in general whether in pve or pvp.

 

From the feb stress test, the bow did less damage than the resto staff, as well as there being no noticable difference between bow light attacks and heavy attacks, when using the crit morphed shadow cloak I was only seeing actual crit hits once every 10-15 attacks and thats with 78% crit(crit morphed shadow cloak).

 

I was literally doing more damage with level one dual weild light attacks than with level 8 bow heavy attacks, I serious think the stat system was extemely broken last beta, both in pvp and pvp and it has me worried somewhat(there is most likely ony one beta before launh and thats open).

[Hans]

when using the crit morphed shadow cloak I was only seeing actual crit hits once every 10-15 attacks and thats with 78% crit(crit morphed shadow cloak).

+70% crit can very well mean crit*1.7So starting with 10% using shadow cloak gives you 17% not 80% crit.