Cyrodiil PvP Theory

[Musclemagic]

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I received this message on facebook, and I think it's a great way to kick off a Cyrodiil Theory thread:

 

 

From: ANONYMOUS (unless they want to be known.)

About ESO: 

My guild (PC by the way, so no fear that you'll meet us on the battlefield ;P) is planning to run a "small" group of dedicated players (8-10 players) in cyrodiil. 

Our goal is to kill larger groups of enemies, possibly also the zerg (if they raid a keep, for example, and are stacked cluelessly infront of a keep's door). We want to kill a lot of players in AvA and farm them alliance points. We're not into raiding keeps that much, we want to be a gank group. We have all played DAoC, that's where we come from, if you wonder why we have that mentality.

Now I did play Beta, but didn't have that much time so I don't really know all the specifics.

I thought about running a group setup something like: 3x Templar Healers, 1 Dragonknight, 3 Sorcerers for AoE Damage and the rest Nightblades or more Dragonknights.

I'm not sure though which abilities everyone should use to make this work.

Do you have any suggestions which group setup to use if we want to be a gank group in Cyrodiil that kills a lot of players? 

By the way I really like your page and your comments, it's appreciated a lot!

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about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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I think 8-10 of well coordinated people is going to due well with a lot of AOE, anything over 3 targets the AOE damage overwhelms both AOE healing and single-target damage by a pretty big amount.

I've done a lot of thinking about groups of all sizes, but right now there's not enough information about how buffs/debuffs will stack to really get a good idea of what combinations will work the best.

If "taunts" make it so targets can only face toward the one opponent in this game, or if there's any little thing like that -- it could change everything about group compositions..so it's hard to say right now.

If you're really interested, message me once beta's out and I'll have a lot better ideas about group comps! ^.^

I'm glad you like my FB page, I do most my theorycrafting on ElderSouls.com though--and there's about 4 other great guys on there as well so it's worth checking out.

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about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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do* not due. Your combination looks pretty solid at this point, until we know all the details that combination will probably be one of the strongest.

I might suggest going more DKs, no NBs. ~4 temps 3 dk 3 sorc would be a seemingly good ratio...

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about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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Temps would all need Rushed Ceremony because I do not believe that dmg absorbs will stack and the healing ritual would be too far from the DKs who will be taking most the damage.

The Temps will definitely all want Eclipse as well, with the health-orb morph.

One of them should take Restoring Aura, 2 of them should take Purge (Not Cleansing Ritual, because Purge gives more MP regen)

All templars should take Rune Focus for the mitigation and the aoe+healing for the sorce's.

You should pair up 1 temp with 1 sorce in the back--and keep them spread out. Have the 1 extra, odd, temp up in front with the dks so there's a main-target--have him take a few heavy pieces and keep Immovable and Rune Focus up at all times and be 66% (max) into HP from leveling with high resistance enchants.

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about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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It's okay if the DKs get spread out a bit, as long as 1 DK is in Grip-range of each of the sorce/temp combos, and all 3 DKs are within the Rushed Ceremony range. (22m per group, 28m range total for dk's/temps.)

2 DKs should take Dark Talons, 1 should take Ash Cloud (the one in medium armor should take Ash Cloud, if there's one in medium.)

A few good DPS DKs will be in light armor with a Destro Staff--especially if you're in the alliance with Dunmer.. Probably only worth taking them for this setup if they're very VERY good at the game, otherwise he'll just get fucked up.

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about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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And, of course you want at least 1 DK with obsidian shield, the one in medium should have spiked armor.

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There should be at least 1 person with magelight, 1 with rapid maneuver, 1-2 with siege shield, and you all should have max-speed horses (rather than carrying or tanking)- of course.

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about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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For the sorce's they should ALL have Mage's Fury, Lightning Splash, Daedric Curse, Daedric Mines, and Lightning Form.

Lightning Form is the best mitigation in the game, so it's hopefully all that they need for ~6 seconds when a few people are past the DKs.

There should always be Daedric Mines set up between the DKs and the Templars/Sorces--that 22m gap should be full of them, especially on the periphery. And then curses, furies, and splashes all around--splashes in the dark talons... Hmm, okay, I change what I said earlier, 1 person should have Dark Talons and be paired with the templar--the other 2 DK should both have Ash Cloud.

The one DK with Dark Talons will be the Kill-targets DK, the Sorce's will drop their Splashes around that guy--and as needed, of course, but mostly around that guy if he can keep a lot around him.

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about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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The sorces should be doing a lot of heavy attacks, the DKs should be doing a lot of blocking-- to get targets off balance, and then the sorces attacks will knock them down.

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If I didn't mention Molten Weapons, I just forgot, but 1 DK MUST have molten weapons, probably the one who's not in medium but isn't the one with dark talons.

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about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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DKs- 2 in heavy, 1 main. 1 in medium.

Fiery Grip 3x

Inhale 2x/Defensive Posture-main)

Dark Talons (Main)/Ash Cloud/Defensive Posture(heavy#2)

Spiked Armor 2x (Main and Medium)/Molten Weapons

Obsidian Shield/Low Slash(main)/Defensive Poster(Medium armor)

I'm not giving Inhale to the main tank because he'll have the PB Templar with him. Hopefully a lot of the melee will try to go to that Templar, in which case they'll get fucked up fast by Talon/Splashes.

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about an hour ago

Musclemagic

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It'll be hard to kill a lot of well organized caster-only groups, but as long as you can get within 22 meters of them (your DKs need the +range morph on grip because the +40% dmg only applies to next single weapon swing and isn't worth it for a group where they're not the DPS in this case.)

But anyway, rapid maneuver will get your medium-armor guy within range pretty fast (sprint speed as well) and then he an pull one back, and you can just chain pull them back to the group and kill them one target at a time.

The way your group would have to counter that happening to them is just by playing the field well--being aware of other dks and having the templars ready to push to the 28m range for heals.

Having 1 NB wouldn't be a bad idea if they have Agony with Dmg-Continues morph and Cripple, ticking for +Ult, and using the Assn's Blade morph for +Ult... because if they can use a lot of Consuming Darkness ultimates and you guys all "Slip Away-synergy" and travel like that up to casters, it would solve a lot of problems. You guys could always stealth but you'd run out of Stam before you could get there. Of course the Medium Armor DK could always solo-stealth a bit further and then the chain-pull could occur and whack away at groups right away by those means..

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3 minutes ago

Musclemagic

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This, at least, is what I plan on doing for my guild. It can be an infinitely large or small group (3sum), the plan still works. Keep it as 1 up front and 2 in back, that way they won't be aoe'd, and then spread out those groups of 3, but always keep groups of 3 and a templar or two lurking in the front if there's a big enough group to allow it.

It's perfect formation to allow for a huge amount of people without being able to be AOE'd down... and then, yeah, you get it. It'll be awesome. Haha

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about a minute ago

Musclemagic

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The only issue is finding enough templars for the back, and then some who are willing to take S&S and a couple heavy pieces-- and PB spells and such. XD

omg I can't wait for this game..

 

So, yeah, that's my current plan..you sneaky sneaks are going to steal it! MY PRECIOUS!... I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions and plans though as well! So gimme gimme gimme some theory!? ^.^

[Musclemagic]

Dear Mod,

Please change thread name to Cyrodiil PVP Theory or simply World PVP Theory. I do not know how to do it, lol.

Love,

Muscles

[Rally]

^Thats a little kids phantasies about ow pvp...

 

If they played daoc, they want something similar to bombgrps, or mezgrps. And at this stage of the game, you dont know how many targets can be hit by ur aoe.in OW u CAN'T just form a battlefront towards the zerg if u are the underpopulated grp. u have to play hit and run. As soon as u plan with this many healers to heal the incomming dmg, u are fucked.OW works like this:->Catch them on the wrong foot

->Bomb as many as u can->retreat to los->rinse, repeat

[David]

Dear Mod,

Please change thread name to Cyrodiil PVP Theory or simply World PVP Theory. I do not know how to do it, lol.

Love,

Muscles

 

You just have to edit the post and then click "Use Full Editor."

 

Good concept for a thread by the way, I haven't seen much discussion on groups yet.

[Earl Grey]

^Thats a little kids phantasies about ow pvp...

 

If they played daoc, they want something similar to bombgrps, or mezgrps. And at this stage of the game, you dont know how many targets can be hit by ur aoe.in OW u CAN'T just form a battlefront towards the zerg if u are the underpopulated grp. u have to play hit and run. As soon as u plan with this many healers to heal the incomming dmg, u are fucked.OW works like this:->Catch them on the wrong foot

->Bomb as many as u can->retreat to los->rinse, repeat

 

For those who haven't played daoc perhaps you could eleborate

[Musclemagic]

For those who haven't played daoc perhaps you could eleborate

 

Please don't worry about things like this, the person is not a child and the person obviously knows that it's a new/different game. I don't know why you're comparing DAOC to ESO for no reason. I believe they were simply stating that they enjoy group PVP.

 

It's true that we don't know how many people will be within a certain radius that spells can affect, or how many people we can typically expect to find at a keep (whether it's 3, 10, 40, or 200, we have no real idea.) But we do know how the spells will generally be like and their basic functions so this thread's not completely irrelevant. But, discussing OW in DAOC..is pretty irrelevant, please keep that to PMs if interested.

 

You just have to edit the post and then click "Use Full Editor."

 

Good concept for a thread by the way, I haven't seen much discussion on groups yet.

 

Ah, yeah, I think I've been told how to a few times..but I can never remember. XD Thanks though for fixing it

[Rally]

Please don't worry about things like this, the person is not a child and the person obviously knows that it's a new/different game. I don't know why you're comparing DAOC to ESO for no reason. I believe they were simply stating that they enjoy group PVP.

 

It's true that we don't know how many people will be within a certain radius that spells can affect, or how many people we can typically expect to find at a keep (whether it's 3, 10, 40, or 200, we have no real idea.) But we do know how the spells will generally be like and their basic functions so this thread's not completely irrelevant. But, discussing OW in DAOC..is pretty irrelevant, please keep that to PMs if interested.

 

 

Ah, yeah, I think I've been told how to a few times..but I can never remember. XD Thanks though for fixing it

Its not abt how many ppl u can find at the keep!Its abt how many u can hit with aoe abilitys.There were many mmos in the past that had a maximum targetnumber for aoes. Even thou it was not in the tooptip....

[Musclemagic]

Its not abt how many ppl u can find at the keep!Its abt how many u can hit with aoe abilitys.There were many mmos in the past that had a maximum targetnumber for aoes. Even thou it was not in the tooptip....

 

The AOE's are very small in this game, and when there's a certain number of targets affected it specifies. I reckon it's a true AOE and not limited by # of targets. That wouldn't be very ES-ish.

[irons]

The AOE's are very small in this game, and when there's a certain number of targets affected it specifies. I reckon it's a true AOE and not limited by # of targets. That wouldn't be very ES-ish.

I expect them to have limits on how many people are effected by AoE's just think about buffs or the DK passive where he gets stamina back if an ability effects another player. In a big fight he would gain 100% stamina back.

[Rally]

I expect them to have limits on how many people are effected by AoE's just think about buffs or the DK passive where he gets stamina back if an ability effects another player. In a big fight he would gain 100% stamina back.

But Musclemagic thinks/reckons/etc...therefor its almost a given fact in his opinion.tbh the groupsetup he described wont work in OW. Its seems like he has close to no experience, when it comes to OW playstyle. Like alwaysU cant stand toe to toe with a zerg if u are <10 players. And the above groupsetup is clearly designed to do that. Frontline,Backline etc

[irons]

U cant stand toe to toe with a zerg if u are <10 players

In some games you actually can. For example I remember that in GW2 there was a Guardian "Commander" Build in which a group of 5 was able to take on smaller zergs. Plus it really depends on the over all numbers like fighting 60 people with 50 is possible fighting 20 with 10 than isn't.Basically I would say the longer a normal fight in PvP takes the harder it will be to take on groups which are bigger than yours.Because if you are able to quickly kill players when you focus fire them a smaller but more organzied group is able to turn the battle. But if that isn't possible or uneffective than it will be extremly difficult to win the battle.

[Xalara]

The person who asked musclemagic about group setups on facebook was me.

 

I am very aware that Dark Age of Camelot and ESO have pretty different game- and combat mechanics and that you can't compare it 1:1. Still, from what I've seen and from the abilities known to us, I do think that a small, organized group can take down a larger force.

 

Of course, you're not going to defeat a zerg of 50+ people head on, that's pretty much impossible unless you outgear them so hard that you basically oneshot kill everyone of that zerg with singletarget abilities one by one, which, given upscaling of stats in cyrodiil, most likely is never going to happen, no matter how low level the others are.

 

Also the crowdcontrol mechanics are quite different, in Dark Age of Camelot you could mesmerize enemies for up to one minute and at the beginning of the game not many people had the counter ability to this (purge). Later on, that changed in DAoC aswell, though.

 

The only way you will be able to defeat a zerg in ESO is if you surprise them when they're stacked up. When a zerg of an enemy Alliance is raiding a keep, for example. You come in with your group (all on the fastest horses available) and you drop all of your AoE and stun abilities on them and hope it's enough damage output to instantly kill a large amount of people.

 

Now we don't know yet how exactly gear will affect our damage output and the damage of our AoE abilities and wether or not there will be a cap to them, but given the fact that ESO is designed by the same people that designed DAoC's Realm versus Realm system, I do not think that pure AoE damage abilities will have a limit of players they can hit. It would severely strengthen zergs and for the versatility of gameplay in Cyrodiil it wouldn't be a good thing if zerging was the only viable options, and the Devs know that.

 

Some abilities which heal yourself or give you stamina increase based on how many people you hit, yea, they might have a cap of players you can hit with them or a cap of stamina you can get from them. But not every AoE ability in the game is like that.

 

The goal which I am pursuing with my guild is not to kill an enemy zerg head on anyway. I just want to form a strong group of likeminded individuals that can take down larger groups than ourselves. And I do believe that that's possible with the abilities ESOs class system provides. I do think that you can defeat 20+ players with a group of 8-10 skilled individuals.

 

And killing larger amounts if you manage to surprise them while they're stacking up in front of a keep door should be possible aswell if you coordinate it correctly and drop enough AoE on top of them. Yes, on an open battlefield it's a whole different story, and I'm well aware of that

[Musclemagic]

But Musclemagic thinks/reckons/etc...therefor its almost a given fact in his opinion.tbh the groupsetup he described wont work in OW. Its seems like he has close to no experience, when it comes to OW playstyle. Like alwaysU cant stand toe to toe with a zerg if u are <10 players. And the above groupsetup is clearly designed to do that. Frontline,Backline etc

 

Nobody other than you said it would be like that, so you have the entirely wrong idea. You're the only person who's actually trying to compare this to DAOC. Although I do think that if they're stacked right, that 3*X group pattern could put out enough DPS to kill a large amount of people, I don't think it's likely that they'd actually stop a zerg..even at a choke point, the way you can get out of CC in ESO means that it's highly unlikely to succeed at stopping a zerge with lower numbers.

 

Also, just because I say that I reckon it'll work like this, doesn't mean that I myself even believe that it's true. If you knew me, you'd realize that I am a soft-agnostic with everything, and I don't believe in facts very easily. It's pure speculation, and I don't appreciate being made fun of just for believing it to be one way or another.

 

 

I expect them to have limits on how many people are effected by AoE's just think about buffs or the DK passive where he gets stamina back if an ability effects another player. In a big fight he would gain 100% stamina back.

 

I think that Molten Weapon or Obsidian Shield or another big buff like that will be able to affect all the targets in the area, but if they have it active already from another DK or w/e then it will only refresh the buff rather than stack on top of it. With that in mind, these buffs like Molten Weapon are meant to be active on the whole group for a very long time, so they obviously want to make it a communal buff like that--given that it takes 1/5 of your skill choices on any given bar to just take a group-buff like that, similar to Restoring Aura. It's entirely sensible that it will effect everybody.

 

On the other hand, with passives like +4% stamina when one of your Earth abilities targets another player, will only work on 1 player--just like a Templar casting spells won't get 4*4% when they cast Piercing Strikes, it will only going to work once per cast... Although, DKs have very little ways to get resources back, so if it does stack and you can cast Molten Weapons on 10 different people, gg you just recovered a total of 5 resources (-35mp+40st).. I think DKs need this kind of resource rebate, and it makes sense that it's stamina.

 

But, having said all this, I actually believe that all buffs could be capped at 4 players--and all damage will be uncapped because it's already very limited. 5m might as well be a single-target spell. Drain Power, Inhale, and Fiery Breath are the biggest AOE DPS spells out there, but they're point-blank.

 

It's too early to say one way or another.. I keep going back and forth now, we'll just have to wait and find out I guess. I do believe it'll ALL be uncapped because things seem pretty balanced already, and even though a few OP things will be revealed--there'll be a counter found (or patched) soon enough.

 

All this is irrelevant until we actually know how big groups like this will work, for now can we please further discuss team compositions--because that helps us decide character creation, which is the first thing we're all still working on.

[Musclemagic]

Food for thread:

 

I believe that Daggerfall Convention's the best alliance by a huge amount. Not only do they not have a mountain or large stream to navigate that could come as a disadvantage to someone coming into Cyrodiil like Aldmeri or Ebonheart do..Daggerfall just has a pretty open field-ish area.

And just think about their racials for a moment--

Orc - Best tanky tank

Redguard - Best stam based DPS, even above Khajiit IMO with the change from Stam to HP regen on Khajiit.

Breton - Best casters unless you want shock damage on a sorce or something--which is still only better in PVE because of the resistance passive.

 

So, that's my opinion. What do you guys think is the best alliance and why?

[Rally]

Aoe spells that were not looked at:Caltrops - Usefull when the zerg is at a keepgate or something similar

Unstable Familiar /w Volatile Familiar morph - just "send" in to die for cc and dmg

Mage's Fury - Only if the aoe dmg still aplies

Impulse - Depends on the effect of Chilled/Concussion

[Musclemagic]

Aoe spells that were not looked at:Caltrops - Usefull when the zerg is at a keepgate or something similar

Unstable Familiar /w Volatile Familiar morph - just "send" in to die for cc and dmg

Mage's Fury - Only if the aoe dmg still aplies

Impulse - Depends on the effect of Chilled/Concussion

 

Because we don't know the effects (impulse) or the radius (including Daedric Curse) on these abilities, it's not worth talking about them yet probably. - At least in terms of numbers. Buildcrafting with them is still awesome, lol, I think caltrops will work very similarly to Daedric Mines.

 

That Volatile Familiar idea is pretty epic though, haha, it's like a fire-golem in D2 where you just summon it from town and then when a melee class kills it the explosion would kill them. lmao

[Areodon]

Aoe spell damage in general is short range , covering small area and with mild intensity in comparison to most games i played. That is for sure game changing factor. On purpose or imbalance devs are dealing with, is to be seen. Can u please explain me what impulse does other than magic damage - what formulation "100 % chance to apply" means from your perspective? From my perspective it looks like prep for next spell which will actually do burning effect. If i am right it is more or less counterbalance to ash cloud kind of spells ( miss chance). If I am right from Pve perspective it is extremely situational and more or less worthless considering resource mechanics.

[Musclemagic]

Aoe spell damage in general is short range , covering small area and with mild intensity in comparison to most games i played. That is for sure game changing factor. On purpose or imbalance devs are dealing with, is to be seen. Can u please explain me what impulse does other than magic damage - what formulation "100 % chance to apply" means from your perspective? From my perspective it looks like prep for next spell which will actually do burning effect. If i am right it is more or less counterbalance to ash cloud kind of spells ( miss chance). If I am right from Pve perspective it is extremely situational and more or less worthless considering resource mechanics.

 

It depends on what kind of destro staff it is- fire, shock, or cold. I think fire/burning is extra damage (burning applied from weapons with fire enchantment--but in this case it's fire staff regular), shock/concussion is a momentary incapacitate (short duration), and cold/chilled is probably a snare between 40% and 60% for around 5-6 seconds is my guess, based on other spells. I think it has to be more than 40 because tri-focus rank 2 is already a 40% slow..from before anyway..now it's rank 1/2 @ 35% slow but I doubt it would go up double--if at all--so probably just 35% with extended duration, but the duration couldn't double or it'd be too long as well so I believe that it will go up to 40% like it was before (like most the full-rank passives are going back to how they were before when maxed out) and have a slightly longer timer of just 4 seconds like before...

And, that's just from a heavy attack snaring the target...so I think Impulse will definitely be over 40% and over 4s duration. Again, guessing around 50-60% and 5-6 seconds to fit with similar spells, it might be AOE but it's short ranged.

 

I agree that it's a bad spell unless maybe if you're a fire-destroy DK who wants a ton of AOE damage could incorporate this extra burning DOT.. but for PVP, I guess the concussion could be good (especially if it's a silence--which would be cool) but something like Bolt Escape is a much better thing for actual PBAOE+evacuation if you're a typical caster... meh.

 

Too early to guess all this though.