The Dragonknight Thread

[Musclemagic]

Obviously DK's are the best tanks in the game, which is awesome for both PVP and PVE. I'm interested in hearing about other people's DK builds though, and since nobody else was making a DK thread.. I'll take it upon myself:

 

I don't feel like starting this thread up how I did before, because I don't want to make a DK tank build since they're all the same cookie cutter possibilities without much difference (okay, nb builds don't vary much either, but w/e!) I got a message from someone, it read as follows:

 

 from private user:

 Mate ,

 

I want to set up one DPS -DK -Dunmer built for PVE by exploring fire effects as much as possible. I have spoke to lot of people about setting up that build in this stage. Still i don't feel comfortable with what i have.I would like to have great aoe output and very good single target.

I plan to switch hotbars more often than most guys plan and that way extend hotbar to 12 in most situations.

 

2H:

Fiery reach or Crit charge

Searing Strike

Reverse Slash

Momentum

Inferno ( i have question mark here)

Magma Armor

 

Destruction Staff:

Destructive Touch

Obsidian Shield

Impulse ( i have question mark here )

Ash field ( i have question mark here )

Weakness of Elements

Meteor

 

I am considering other spells like ( spiked armor, inner fire, bone shield, molten weapons, stone fist )

All that a lot depends on armor what i will wear.

What do u suggest in regard : 0) Build as such ( all suggestions are more then welcome) 1 ) points distribution (H/M/S) 2) Armor ( L/M/H) 3) Enchants

 

Thanks mate in advance ,

 

I think they'd get more benefit if we made this public, rather than just my own input.

This was my jumbled response:

 

 

since this build's for PVE DPS, the choices seem relatively easy--just go with what will give you the most damage output in the most situations for your entire group.

 

Light armor, remove reverse slash and momentum because they'll be weak if you divvy up weapon and spell powers.

 

bar-swapping a lot takes a lot of time out of your gameplay, so unless you're a buff/debuff bar mixed with a dump-bar it doesn't work very well.

 

you definitely want an up-close bar that you can use your DK fire damage abilities with-- DW for the +dmg passives are much better than 2H, even considering the double amount of burning you'd cause with 2H..the splash damage only applies to weapon damage, not great, and yeah--DW passives > 2H for skill damage (with Light Armor setup).

 

But here's the thing... the Destro staff's so much better for damage because of Weakness to Elements, that there's no need for another bar with single-target dmg.

 

I might say not to use light, but with destro staff as one of your weapon choices you'll definitely want it.

 

It's a shame you can't use the PVP abilities in PVE (dungeons anyway..maybe if they're in cyrodiil? Not sure how it works).

 

As much as I advocate going 100% HP distribution, you'll probably want a lot of MP because DK can't get it back that easily even when built for it. Probably 50/50 MP/HP, but maybe even more MP because you're PVE you can afford not to have quite as high HP as a DPS rather than a tank, probably 60mp:40hp would be good. Enchants I'd go as much MP regen as necessary, then spell power rather than crit since you don't have crit multipliers.

 

I've actually been meaning to make this build again for a while, since my first attempt at it is the only one still posted on the TLDR thread, lol:

 

DK - Dunmer - Destro/Resto - Light

Destruction (fire) Staff - Single Target

Weakness to Elements - Debuff

Fiery Grip - Gap Close

Searing Strike - DOT

Lava Whip - Dmg Spam

Petrify - Long incapacitate, priceless IMO in PVE. Change the fights from 1v2 to 1v1.

*Ancestral Guardian - Save the day when things get sticky but you can't afford to swap to Resto bar for survival.

Restoration Staff - Multi-target

Inferno - AOE

Fiery Breath - AOE

Lots of choices for the next 3- you could either kite groups, if you're soloing a lot you'd need to, or you could just build it kind of tanky, or healy for soloing or support--which you could also utilize even while doing single-target grinding...

*DK standard - On-point AOE dmg ftw with this bar. Drop it right into a group who's in your Dark Talons if you go kitey or your Ash Cloud if you go tanky.... Skadoo!

 

Really depends what you're looking for though, if you like melee weapons then this build doesn't work great for you--even though you'd be in melee range most the time.

 

It's hard to make a good DK, they are either the best DPS or the best Survival, but it's hard to mash both those things together while getting a decent resource distribution for both bars as well.

 

Tough calls on a 2nd bar with that 1st destro bar there.. Nothing else is really good enough compared to that sexy single-target DPS... but hey, if you have no problem with the idea of swapping bars a lot...maybe just do something like this for 2nd bar:

Resto - Buff bar

Molten Weapons - At least helps group a lot, even if weapon power's not that huge for you personally.

Obsidian Shield

Spiked Armor

Dragon Blood

Regeneration

 

If you do this, then you could win pretty much any single-target fight out there...but you'll need to max out MP almost (66%mp, 33%hp). But you'll take so little damage from most things that I think you should take +hp flat regen enchants and lifesteal on weapons rather than taking +% hp or anything.

 

There are so many options mate, it's hard to say without knowing exactly what you're looking for.

 

Hit me with some feedback, I'll reply again. And, if you liked my response, like my facebook: www.facebook.com/musclemagicps4

 

I want more DK discussions, so I hope a few of you reply to this thread.

 

Cheers

 

Edit: I love how it says, "David Said" haha...oh fail on my part. It won't go away!

[Areodon]

then private user said :-)

Huh i knew u will do that.

U are thinking out the box ( that is not good - that is great ) .

There is one huge "flaw" to your build. Its more or less remote controle DPS. I love to get dirty and to be on the edge. On the other side DK does have a lot of DMG mitigation skills and can survive.

I know how to keep this guy alive and take their souls - at least in PVE. Imagine that u are building car for ex Formula 1 driver.

I would rather go with 2H and Destro. I know u said dw because of light armor but i suppose i will not be in light with 2H and Destro.

I know this way i am splitting resources and thats why i need your expertise. I would really need a bit skill balancing and rock hard resource distribution ( points , armor and enchants).

In regard to hotbar switching - do we know for how long we will be "paused " . If it is under one second then its feasible.

With hotbar switching all the time u dont need to think about two weapons like ill use them 50;50 . Ill use destro for weakness and everything else on situational bases. All but weakness ( spell) i have already on my class line. So clearly regarding resource distribution we can say i have 2H weapon and lot of magic based skills. I would say that i will press magic buttons in 60 - 65 % of the cases. I would like also to check one fact - what is the magic cost of searing strike ( i have info its 18????? ) if it is 18 on level 1 i suppose its best button u can have regarding cost efficiency.

Mate, again - thank u very, very much for helping me.

Areo

I know that "public opinion" goes in if favor of DK tanks. Still from dps point of view DK is/will be great choice. Like Muscle says great firepower , great defence but difficult to balance. It doesn't need to be in balance ( PVE ). Since PVE is group game u need to have great firepower and some spells which will trim peaks (Damage mitigation, cc, stun so u can create second wall of defence in order to protect caster and healer). For that u need really good group ( tank , healer ). Why great dps is always in the best guilds - coz if he is balanced can't push numbers. Only trick to make DK work will be how to adjust resources to game style of particular player. Backbone will be Armor and everything else will be built around it (resource point distribution , enchants, pots). PVP is completely different ball game. There u have to have more balance and ofc specific pvp skills ...

[Musclemagic]

You're trying to use with two things that don't work together:

The game is designed to either go Destro (3 types of Destro staves) + Resto or to go with 2H/DW/S&S with a Bow. This is because of how separate armor & magic resistances are, how separate weapon dmg and spell damage are, and how separate magicka and stamina are. If you deviate from one path (which you can easily go 1 path and be just as well off as going both paths) then the other path is going to be weaker. If you try to make both paths work then you will surely be weaker in both paths (and since you can make one path work perfectly, it's not beneficial in the slightest).

 

The only other option is using DW or 2H and using S&S as other bar instead of Bow, this works fine--especially if you're in heavy armor (best heavy armor DPS --not regular tank-- is templar though.)

 

Searing Strike is very efficient, yes.

 

If you want fire damage to be high, at all, then the only thing you should be using is Destro bar with that fire damage. If you try to use a 2H and your fire spells for damage, they will both be weak and not as good.

 

They try to counter this by being able to use your Stamina to use spells, while otherwise you wouldn't be able to, but the thing is that there are support spells that use stamina that you don't need to do damage with--making it so you don't need to worry about weapon power and such, making you much more powerful than anyone trying to use both and still using all resources.

 

Most people will not realize this, they will take things that cost ST and MP without realizing that the other thing being buffed is a nerf to the first thing.

 

I really think that the best DPS DK would look something like this:

 

DK - Dunmer - Destro/Resto - Light

Destruction (fire) Staff -

Weakness to Elements

Fiery Grip

Searing Strike

Lava Whip

Petrify

 

*Ancestral Guardian

Resto -

Molten Weapons

Obsidian Shield

Spiked Armor

Dragon Blood

Regeneration

*Magma Armor

 

If you want to use 2H for dmg, then also use DW(funky but might work), S&S, or Bow rather than destro. Resto might still work as that buff bar, and then switch back to 2H for Stamina skills--that could actually work nicely, but then again..if you're looking for DPS you really want to synergize your fire damage up as much as you can by using light armor and such. If you try to use a physical damage weapon then you're not going to do so hot (pun intended).

[irons]

 

best heavy armor DPS --not regular tank-- is templar though.

 

Do you mind to explain why you think that way?

 

 

There have been quite a few chances to abilities and mechanics that's why older builds are no longer as good as they used to be.

 

In the latest video we say that they character sheet had spell damage and weapon dmg seperate while before there was just 1 attribute for both (power).

[Areodon]

Muscle,

 

Thanks for advice. I am not convinced coz i believe in numbers. Probably we can't have math completed due to lack of info. I hear your logic about splitting resources but even if it is only relevant factor - split of resources is something u do all the time even in hard core cookie build so it means that sometimes is better to split then to stay in one . Besides that, game which is having unique combat system for active defences can't marginalise offence which are those defending. In short words - white hits (normal and power attack )must stand for something. If white hits are significant damage dealers then spells are filling white hit gaps .-). Perhaps i am wrong coz i have on my mind completely different combat mechanics then it will be the case. That combat mechanics ( in my mind ) is actually reason why i want to use 2 hotbars as one so i can fill swap hotbar gap with white hit . 

Still i think that i have to suck it up for now and check all options we have in the game. After all i will not play till release of the game because of personal reasons :-) 

[irons]

While I don't agree with musclemagic that a Staff and a melee weapon together doesn't work.

I agree with him that with the changes now you either should focus on physical dmg or magic dmg.

[Musclemagic]

Muscle,

 

Thanks for advice. I am not convinced coz i believe in numbers. Probably we can't have math completed due to lack of info. I hear your logic about splitting resources but even if it is only relevant factor - split of resources is something u do all the time even in hard core cookie build so it means that sometimes is better to split then to stay in one . Besides that, game which is having unique combat system for active defences can't marginalise offence which are those defending. In short words - white hits (normal and power attack )must stand for something. If white hits are significant damage dealers then spells are filling white hit gaps .-). Perhaps i am wrong coz i have on my mind completely different combat mechanics then it will be the case. That combat mechanics ( in my mind ) is actually reason why i want to use 2 hotbars as one so i can fill swap hotbar gap with white hit . 

Still i think that i have to suck it up for now and check all options we have in the game. After all i will not play till release of the game because of personal reasons :-) 

 

Watching any gameplay video, you'll see that "white" (normal hits) damage is not a big source of damage in comparison to spell damage. But, the white numbers are sustainable in the videos I've seen and usually do add up to about 50% of the long-term damage. So, you could focus on white damage if you'd like. But, if you want to maximize dps then you're already synergizing a lot for that fire damage, you might as well always keep the fire destro staff on when you're DPSing because it'll be your best option, and spell power will be a much better option for you than weapon damage in that case as well.

 

I don't think you'd be able to get white hits during the time you're swapping weapons anyway. I guess we'll see, I do really like that idea.

 

While I don't agree with musclemagic that a Staff and a melee weapon together doesn't work.

I agree with him that with the changes now you either should focus on physical dmg or magic dmg.

 

^ Irons said what I was going to say. It's not a problem to split resources, it's a problem that the damage and such is split.

 

Has your current build idea updated recently? If you could post a build-plan of your current ideas then I could pinpoint my problem with it easier.

 

Do you mind to explain why you think that way?

 

 

There have been quite a few chances to abilities and mechanics that's why older builds are no longer as good as they used to be.

 

In the latest video we say that they character sheet had spell damage and weapon dmg seperate while before there was just 1 attribute for both (power).

 

Yeah, all the updates have made it clearer as to how they're balancing everything. I for one really like these updates, I had a feeling it would be something like this but couldn't envision it.

 

I think that heavy armor who's DPS will be best as a 2H templar. Sure, NB get's Haste and Sorce gets Surge, but I think that the increase in healing received goes to waste if you're not a templar. The 4% increased weapon damage is nice. The spell protection and increase blocking is nice as well. On top of this, I think the best ability is Restoring Aura-- high amount of health and stamina regen is exactly what you'll want for heavy armor 2H builds with high mRes. Sun Shield is amazing too, because you don't need the MP regeneration as much with 2H as focus.

 

A DK is better for tanking and survival, for sure, but if you want to focus DPS while wearing heavy I think templar is the best choice. Cleansing Ritual's always nice to have when you're survival-ish.

 

A NB would be best choice for weapon damage, but they can't deal as well with resources so they're better in medium armor, also for imp sneak.... Just my opinion anyway.

[Areodon]

Hey Musclee, Irons 

 

No i havent updated curent build coz i really dont know where to go from here unless to start from scratch.  On the other side i like this build a lot ( credit for it goes to Irons ). I feel it must work. Scarcity of information ( and constant changes ) makes almost imoposible task to calculate it down to the point where its easy to recognise what are answers on questions in front of us.  

[irons]

I think that heavy armor who's DPS will be best as a 2H templar. Sure, NB get's Haste and Sorce gets Surge, but I think that the increase in healing received goes to waste if you're not a templar. The 4% increased weapon damage is nice. The spell protection and increase blocking is nice as well. On top of this, I think the best ability is Restoring Aura-- high amount of health and stamina regen is exactly what you'll want for heavy armor 2H builds with high mRes. Sun Shield is amazing too, because you don't need the MP regeneration as much with 2H as focus.

None of this says that the DPS of a heavy armor Templer will be best. It just says that it will be one of the strongest heavy armor builds with which I agree.

[Musclemagic]

None of this says that the DPS of a heavy armor Templer will be best. It just says that it will be one of the strongest heavy armor builds with which I agree.

 

There's more synergy with heavy while using 2h/dw/s&s to do damage..meaning that +weapon damage and stamina is key for DPS. I think that Templar has the most stamina, and that this will be the most important thing for stamina based damage attacks.

[irons]

There's more synergy with heavy while using 2h/dw/s&s to do damage..meaning that +weapon damage and stamina is key for DPS. I think that Templar has the most stamina, and that this will be the most important thing for stamina based damage attacks.

Okay that's a fair point )

[Areodon]

Obviously i can't let it go. I would like to try something like maximising magica and fire dps in PVE . 

What u think about this build ( 5 light and 2 Heavy ; point distribution: 25M;15H and 9 stam; enchants will be there for fine tuning) : 

 

Destro

 

Fiery reach

Weakness to elements

Searing strike

Petrify

Spiked armor

Magma armor

 

Destro

 

Obsidian shield

Fiery breath

Dragon blood

Ash cloud

Inhale

Meteor / Dragon standard 

 

I would also consider ( trapping webs ( single ), inner fire, inferno ( multi target), bone shield , immovable, if i really need gap closer then ill take crit charge from two hander ) 

I had few trade offs coz of positioning on hotbars ( mostly coz of passives): 1) wanted to have as soon as possible ultimate and some stamina back  (petrify and obsidian shield), health regeneration ( blood and spiked); Wanted to have some defences on both loadouts ; Petrify is there to give me option not to switch to aoe bar ( if i have two mobs on me ); ended up with splitting bars on aoe and single ( if that works will mostly depend on switch mechanics) .

Guys what do u think  ?  

[irons]

Obviously i can't let it go. I would like to try something like maximising magica and fire dps in PVE . 

What u think about this build ( 5 light and 2 Heavy ; point distribution: 25M;15H and 9 stam; enchants will be there for fine tuning) : 

 

Destro

 

Fiery reach

Weakness to elements

Searing strike

Petrify

Spiked armor

Magma armor

 

Destro

 

Obsidian shield

Fiery breath

Dragon blood

Ash cloud

Inhale

Meteor / Dragon standard 

 

I would also consider ( trapping webs ( single ), inner fire, inferno ( multi target), bone shield , immovable, if i really need gap closer then ill take crit charge from two hander ) 

I had few trade offs coz of positioning on hotbars ( mostly coz of passives): 1) wanted to have as soon as possible ultimate and some stamina back  (petrify and obsidian shield), health regeneration ( blood and spiked); Wanted to have some defences on both loadouts ; Petrify is there to give me option not to switch to aoe bar ( if i have two mobs on me ); ended up with splitting bars on aoe and single ( if that works will mostly depend on switch mechanics) .

Guys what do u think  ?

If you want i will sit down tommorow and create a build for you

[Areodon]

U are very kind mate. Please do that - by now u know what i am looking for. I would appreciate to teach me what (why ) i did wrong in last build (destro / destro). I am used to have all stats and mech boss in front of me,  and then, its easy for me. Theorycrafting is discipline where u have to have a lot of theoretical knowledge and i am short there. When i sit down and start to do some math i have more and more and more questions, can't find firm point around which i can build - at the end i just drop it.  

[Musclemagic]

Obviously i can't let it go. I would like to try something like maximising magica and fire dps in PVE . 

What u think about this build ( 5 light and 2 Heavy ; point distribution: 25M;15H and 9 stam; enchants will be there for fine tuning) : 

 

Destro

 

Fiery reach

Weakness to elements

Searing strike

Petrify

Spiked armor

Magma armor

 

Destro

 

Obsidian shield

Fiery breath

Dragon blood

Ash cloud

Inhale

Meteor / Dragon standard 

 

I would also consider ( trapping webs ( single ), inner fire, inferno ( multi target), bone shield , immovable, if i really need gap closer then ill take crit charge from two hander ) 

I had few trade offs coz of positioning on hotbars ( mostly coz of passives): 1) wanted to have as soon as possible ultimate and some stamina back  (petrify and obsidian shield), health regeneration ( blood and spiked); Wanted to have some defences on both loadouts ; Petrify is there to give me option not to switch to aoe bar ( if i have two mobs on me ); ended up with splitting bars on aoe and single ( if that works will mostly depend on switch mechanics) .

Guys what do u think  ?  

 

One bar is good against single-target melee, the other bar is supposed to be good for AOE..tanking almost? But your abilities are all short-ranged so you'd be tanking melee-only really and since you're in light armor this is a very bad idea. Also, you don't have anything that costs stamina--so why do you want to waste 9 points into stamina?

 

What are the goals of your two bars? Please be specific, tell us what you want each of your bars to specifically accomplish.

[Areodon]

Tanking ? No i dont want to tank. I told u in previous mails what i want to do - dps based on fire.  

What long range spells do i have on my disposal ( in my opinion i have Force shock and entropy ( mage guild) - single target both) - only thing i have for long range is white hits. From my perspective I have all single and aoe damage i need. All that tanking spells ( damage mitigation) are there to compensate for light armor. Imagine if i went for heavy armor - then u would say - no mate u dont have enough magic. That 9 in stamina is there to be able to break from cc and besides i don't know how much i will spend of it to make let say 15 m run, how much one block costs,  how i will survive aoe (have to run out and grip guy to me). Those questions are just fraction of questions i have on my mind.

What i wanted to accomplish with my two bars - i wanted to manage actives and passives behind it in most cost efficient way focusing resource management, wanted to have sufficient survivability for close range combat considering that DK + destro doesn't have long range spells which give bang for buck equal to my class spells. At the end i have on the bars what i have.  But seriously - take a look what u suggested me like 2-3 mails ago ( destro - resto ). 

Funny thing is that i make my living on crunching numbers and have very little or none of necessary info to start with.  

P.S. Splitting bars on single and aoe is totally wrong from my experience but still i have buffer ( petrify )and aoe would be above two mobs and considering aoe is lacking range i don't see much i can get/lose there. 

[Musclemagic]

Tanking ? No i dont want to tank. I told u in previous mails what i want to do - dps based on fire.  

What long range spells do i have on my disposal ( in my opinion i have Force shock and entropy ( mage guild) - single target both) - only thing i have for long range is white hits. From my perspective I have all single and aoe damage i need. All that tanking spells ( damage mitigation) are there to compensate for light armor. Imagine if i went for heavy armor - then u would say - no mate u dont have enough magic. That 9 in stamina is there to be able to break from cc and besides i don't know how much i will spend of it to make let say 15 m run, how much one block costs,  how i will survive aoe (have to run out and grip guy to me). Those questions are just fraction of questions i have on my mind.

What i wanted to accomplish with my two bars - i wanted to manage actives and passives behind it in most cost efficient way focusing resource management, wanted to have sufficient survivability for close range combat considering that DK + destro doesn't have long range spells which give bang for buck equal to my class spells. At the end i have on the bars what i have.  But seriously - take a look what u suggested me like 2-3 mails ago ( destro - resto ). 

Funny thing is that i make my living on crunching numbers and have very little or none of necessary info to start with.  

P.S. Splitting bars on single and aoe is totally wrong from my experience but still i have buffer ( petrify )and aoe would be above two mobs and considering aoe is lacking range i don't see much i can get/lose there. 

 

I know you don't want to tank, but that's what it looks like you're trying to do with bar#2. It's not a support bar, just a tank bar with no taunt and without damage that you can time for key-points or anything. I'm sorry, but for group PVE your bar #2 is not a good bar.

 

Destro - Resto would be a much better combination because you could still do the exact (actually more) amount of damage but your other bar will actually be worthwhile for your group.

 

You say you want a dungeon build, and you say your goal with both bars is DPS with fire emphasis.... yet neither of your bars will do as much DPS as they would if you were more focused. The truth is that for group PVE you need to be a lot more directed per each bar than if you were PVE solo.

 

I'm sure your grasp on numbers is very good but right here it's not about the numbers it's about the group synergy.

 

So, here's what I'd recommend: Don't take stamina for an all MP build. Ditch the 2 heavy for more DPS, and just rely on your group a bit more. You also said it's not a good idea to split up single and AOE damage, so I'll try to fix that. You also split your defensives so they are completely self-serving. Again, relying on your group a bit more would be better because your only defensives for yourself are within melee range again, so you're forced to rely on your group a lot-especially as Destro-Destro (which I am still against because it's simply overkill-you're not using a destro skill in bar#2, why not go resto and help out a bit more?--and actually do a bit more damage, which I'll explain later. Petrify doesn't need to be on your DPS bar because it lasts long and it's a support spell that isn't always necessary--you should be trying to DPS with bar#1, in my opinion.

 

Trying to achieve the same goal with both bars is silly, you can find a "best" combination and just use that. I'll try to incorporate your desire though for defensives and offensives mixed within each other.

 

Your first bar is fine, my only recommendation is that I'd put petrify on your other bar. Spiked Armor's a good choice for your bar#1 because of light armor and that you'll be in melee-ranged a lot. Spiked armor also gives you the +healing passive that's amazing from that tree.

 

You won't benefit the group as much with the two muddled bars as you would if you were able to do more DPS with one, and support the group when you aren't DPSing with the other bar.

 

So, here's what I'd recommend:

7 light armor, 66% mp 33% hp, dunmer, dk, mp regen as necessary--filled with power enchants.

 

Destro: DPS Spiked Armor helps VS melee, which in a group setting should be all the self-buffing you need to overcome light armor--because you can rely on your team to help peel/heal for you since you're DPS. With this bar you see you have a lot more options for damage 

Weakness to Elements (Used prior to Fiery, so that the +weapon damage from next hit on fiery grip is applied, +it has a higher range so you'll cast it first anyway usually.)

Fiery Grip

Searing Strike

Fiery Breath - OR - Lava Whip, depending on if you want to have an AOE or if you want to have a spammable single-target. I would definitely recommend taking Lava Whip, but I think that you would disagree and take Fiery Breath even though in your initial bar #1 it was only single-target.

Spiked Armor

*DK Standard - Good DPS

Resto: Group Support

Petrify

Molten Weapons - Or, take a spammable damage (either force Shock or I'd recommend Lava Whip if it's not on your bar#1. Having a spammable damage button is very important in my opinion. The spammable damage will actually do more damage here on the Resto Bar than Destro because of the +% dmg based on health--assuming you don't have time to set up a white hit or weakness of elements first, so it might be better to take Lava Whip on this bar, meaning that Fiery Breath was probably the right choice for Bar#1.)

Obsidian Shield

Regeneration

Blessing of Protection (between obsidian shield/regeneration it's probably enough to help out when time's needed

*Ancestral Guardian - Not only helps you, but helps the whole group a lot by tanking something.

 

So, you can see that your bar#1 is almost identical to the one I'd recommend. Your bar#2 though is entirely self-serving, which might be good to increase your own survival but the healer's going to need support sometimes too.

 

Here's my recommendation cleaned up:

Dunmer DK Light Destro/Resto

Bar 1 - Destro

Weakness to Elements

Fiery Grip

Searing Strike

Fiery Breath  EDIT: Force Shock

Spiked Armor

*DK Standard

Bar 2 - Resto

Petrify

Obsidian Shield

Regeneration

Molten Weapons

Lava Whip EDIT: Fiery Breath

*Ancestral Guardian

 

Bar #1 you just take an AOE over Petrify, Bar #2 you just take different defensives that I believe are more beneficial for your goals (group pve) and then you have the capacity to do huge burst damage that doesn't require setup.

 

Depending on if it stays on between swaps, you should have plenty of MP/Regen that you could keep the bonuses on bar#2 up while also sustaining DPS with bar#1, and then even switching to bar#2 just for bursting power even after setting up weakness with bar#1.

 

I believe these small changes would be greatly beneficial. You don't need to take this advice, because your bars are fine--but I hope you can see where I'm coming from--because I truly believe that these bars are more focused as well as more beneficial for your desired outcome - Group PVE.

 

EDIT: Force Shock might be nice to have on bar#1 because you won't always want to pull the target to you, and it's 28m range so sometimes it might be really nice to have. Maybe put Force Shock instead of Fiery Breath and then put Fiery Breath instead of Lave Whip. I think this would be a better choice, not only is it ranged but it's a good spammable MP dump on your DPS bar that's easy to use.

 

Hmm, after making that change I actually really like this build..it's pretty damn sexy. XD

[Areodon]

If i separately observe first bar - following your way I would make more damage ( i will not waste time on swapping and have more resistance override). I guess your idea was to provide for less swapping since i have damage keystones on my first bar => that take us to spending most of time on first bar. 

I believe your suggestion for first bar is viable if it provides sufficient survivability. My basic idea was that having light armor while standing in melee range ( coz of lack of long range offensive spells - u haven't cured this in your suggestion) is going to be tricky from perspective of survivability ( your option is reducing stamina and stamina regeneration, health regeneration and health pool and increasing magica pool and mag reg). In option i was considering my char would need for lot less healing and support from my group and that will save group resources which is also beneficial for the group. I have used aoe utility like ash cloud which is also group support coz enhancing mob miss chance. Petrify on second bar ( support bar / i will spend a lot less time on that bar) is losing important element of its nature - mid range interrupt ( time for switching will be at least 1 second and that leaves me to 0.2 sec to interrupt - thats unreliable). Having  breath on utility bar is not an option coz that aoe will "unpetrify" mob. AOE Hot provided by regeneration is in my perspective marginal ( cca 0,5 % of health per sec per person over 20 sec) to be base for investing in resto passives. If u are occasional/non reliable support healer then u want to dish out some serious heal to specific target.Think that would be just waste of resources. Regarding guardian ( racial ) i really dont have idea what is dev idea what he should do and how well in terms of numbers he will perform - so that leaves him out of my considerations till i know a bit more. By the way i like molten weapons ! 

All in all your proposal has some strong pros and some strong cons. What is better - don't know but anyways thanks mate for helping me find a solution for me. We will be much smarter when we have more info. One is sure - this game is different then most i played before and how much different it is to be seen. 

[irons]

For PvE Dungeons.

 

DS:

Searing Strike

Fiery Breath

Inferno

Weakness of Elements

Obsidian Shield

 

Dragonknight Standard

 

 

The second bar doesn't really matter too much there you could go for support or control or so.

 

 

*just an Example

Obsidian Shield

Molten Weapons

Ash Cloud

Inferno

Petrify

 

 

 

The reason why you don't see a gap closer in this build is that you most likely are going to stay close to your group so that you can use your synergies. That's why mobs will either run towards your group are pulled in by your tank or get stuned.

 

Why Obsidian Shield? It protects you and also your allies from all sort of dmg, so unlike Spike Armor which only helps against physical dmg obsidian shield holds all dmg away from you.

[Areodon]

For PvE Dungeons.

 

DS:

Searing Strike

Fiery Breath

Inferno

Weakness of Elements

Obsidian Shield

 

Dragonknight Standard

 

 

The second bar doesn't really matter too much there you could go for support or control or so.

 

 

*just an Example

Obsidian Shield

Molten Weapons

Ash Cloud

Inferno

Petrify

 

 

 

The reason why you don't see a gap closer in this build is that you most likely are going to stay close to your group so that you can use your synergies. That's why mobs will either run towards your group are pulled in by your tank or get stuned.

 

Why Obsidian Shield? It protects you and also your allies from all sort of dmg, so unlike Spike Armor which only helps against physical dmg obsidian shield holds all dmg away from you.

Thanks mate, 

I have couple of questions/observations : 1) What armor I should use in your opinion for this build 2) What is inferno range (around me) 3) Why to have same spells on both loadouts ( i can have more spells/utilities other way around ) 4) Why to lose fiery reach which in morphed version can give me serious damage multiplier ( 1,4 ) and close gap if we know that i don't have serious long range dps abilities. If cc is on other bar i have to spend at least 3 seconds to continue dps ( Switch to second bar , hit petrify , switch to first bar ). If we know that single target - searing strike is cost efficient ( a bit better than fiery breath ) it means that i would rather resolve two attackers with petrify , other with single target then to dps with aoe which will break petrify. if i have more than two on me then its simple have to press o'shit butt and deliver as much  damage as i can in second to take down with me as much as possible. 5) your observation about spiked/obsidian is spot on. 6) Imagine that i don't have inferno on second bar why u would need obsidian shield on that bar. And then again u have both on my first bar. I think that both are redundant on second bar. As general rule in my opinion u have to have as much as possible answers for simple combat patterns on your bars. One hotbar is to short and it has to provide u complete answer for one dimension of problems. That take us to fragmentation problem caused by short bars. We agreed more or less about abilities but we speak about distribution which will provide as much dps up time as possible and survivability in both situations/hotbars. What is your rough estimate dps with and without molten weapons (percentage wise).

I learned about difference spiked ad obsidian thanks ( that is making one spot on my second bar free for whatever - probably one aoe more) . Never was thinking about that.  

[irons]

Thanks mate, 

I have couple of questions/observations : 1) What armor I should use in your opinion for this build 2) What is inferno range (around me) 3) Why to have same spells on both loadouts ( i can have more spells/utilities other way around ) 4) Why to lose fiery reach which in morphed version can give me serious damage multiplier ( 1,4 ) and close gap if we know that i don't have serious long range dps abilities. If cc is on other bar i have to spend at least 3 seconds to continue dps ( Switch to second bar , hit petrify , switch to first bar ). If we know that single target - searing strike is cost efficient ( a bit better than fiery breath ) it means that i would rather resolve two attackers with petrify , other with single target then to dps with aoe which will break petrify. if i have more than two on me then its simple have to press o'shit butt and deliver as much  damage as i can in second to take down with me as much as possible. 5) your observation about spiked/obsidian is spot on. 6) Imagine that i don't have inferno on second bar why u would need obsidian shield on that bar. And then again u have both on my first bar. I think that both are redundant on second bar. As general rule in my opinion u have to have as much as possible answers for simple combat patterns on your bars. One hotbar is to short and it has to provide u complete answer for one dimension of problems. That take us to fragmentation problem caused by short bars. We agreed more or less about abilities but we speak about distribution which will provide as much dps up time as possible and survivability in both situations/hotbars. What is your rough estimate dps with and without molten weapons (percentage wise).

I learned about difference spiked ad obsidian thanks ( that is making one spot on my second bar free for whatever - probably one aoe more) . Never was thinking about that.  

CAPS PLS !!!!!!

 

Armor: 7 light

 

 

1. No gap closer because in dungeons there is not really a need for it (just my expectation)

 

2. The bonus dmg comes on cost of 1s less dmg plus it increases your weapon dmg and your main source of dmg is magic dmg which means it won't be as helpful as for a physcial fighter

 

Searing Strike is your single target ability fiery breath your AoE attack

Inferno should have a range of around 5m (same as searing strike) it's mainly used because it allows you to deal extra dmg while you use your "active" abilities like Searing Strike and Fiery Breath.

 

 

The reason why I have a couple of spells on both bars is simple:

1. The First bar is your main bar when ever possible you wanna use that one

2. Is just for situations where your group needs support or control or what ever and therefore can be changed for what ever is needed.

3. To use one ability and switch back to your other bar is kind of a waste normally you will use your second bar at least or a couple of seconds.

 

 

I think molten weapon will be around 10% (more likely less than that) for the caster and around 5% for your allies.

But keep in mind that molten weapon won't be that useful for casters (weapon dmg).

[Areodon]

Thanks mate ,

If molten is around 5% its huge. Inferno is pretty expensive for backup damage. 

Gap closer is to be considered but before we see how AI will work we can't know.

About spell distribution over 2 bars : think that we over analyze things. Why - simple math is showing that full rotation without gaps is totally impossible ( spamming). It means that we have time for a lot of things and among other for hotbar switching. If i am right then we better have some solutions for stamina supply. 

[Musclemagic]

Areodon, I was keeping Fiery Grip because you initially had it, but irons is spot on--you won't need it, or even want it, in a dungeon. The +40% damage to next white hit isn't a big increase in overall damage at all, so that shouldn't be the reason you take it.

 

irons recommendations are perfect, I'd personally take Spiked Armor or Ash Cloud on bar#1 instead of Obsidian Shield because it protects you in the ways you need protection and also does DPS (spiked)--and you're the DPS. Spiked also gives you +12% healing received at all times it's up, which is huge and helps the healer and tank a lot.. but Ash Cloud helps the tank more, so it's a toss up in my opinion between those two.

 

Obsidian Shield on bar#2 might take longer to cast off, but I see bar#2 as a passive bar--not an active thing where you'd be switching to it in combat to actually try to heal a single target or anything like that--you'd just be buffing your group.

 

Open with Petrify on #2 (your Fiery Breath won't break it..as long as you don't aim your cone at the Petrified target. )

 

Before a heavy-aoe damage incoming, switch to #2 and throw down obsidian and regeneration before switching bar to your bar, you're not trying to heal--you're just trying to create a buffer for the healer/tank in some (rare-ish) situations.

 

And, keeping Molten Weapons up from #2 at all times is of course a good idea. As well as Force-Siphon for hard single-targets like bosses or mini bosses. Bar#2's just a passive support bar that helps both you and your group, mostly your group as a whole, so that everything just goes smoother--your bar#1's strictly DPS because that is your role.

 

I'd also change irons suggestion of inferno to Force Shock or Lava Whip because without a gap closer, having at least 1 ranged attack other than your white hits will be very nice to have---and also the fact that it's spammable means a LOT when single-target burst is needed. The interrupt from Force Shock is also quite nice to just have around.

 

Here's the bars I'd recommend without Fiery Grip:

Destro-

Weakness to Elements

Force Shock/Lava Whip

Searing Strike

Fiery Breath

Spiked Armor

Resto-

Petrify

Molten Weapons

Force Siphon

Obsidian Shield

Regeneration

 

 Why - simple math is showing that full rotation without gaps is totally impossible ( spamming). It means that we have time for a lot of things and among other for hotbar switching. If i am right then we better have some solutions for stamina supply. 

 

 

Ahh, now I see why you want two bars. You are wrong though, you will definitely be able to keep up Spiked Armor, the dots on Searing Strike and Fiery Breath up, and keep Weakness of Elements up on one target without having to wait for MP. The other abilities are on a need-to-use basis...which is also why they're on a second bar.

 

Quit talking about Stamina though, you don't use it and you won't need much of it in PVE so don't worry about it. You should spec a lot into MP simply because you're in a group that has your back. You should have theirs by being able to do a lot of damage, as your DPS role is supposed to do. The extra MP = a lot more Force Shocks (you could go Lava Whip if you don't mind the range, it's a lot more damage) on Single Targets or Fiery Breath spams into AOE.

 

 

EDIT: Bone Shield would be a good alternative to Spiked Armor, because you get about the same melee-mitigation personally, but your group can activate it to help themselves out by a HUGE amount if necessary. But, it's slightly less mitigation and since you're a melee-ranged clothy, you'll want the +12% healing as well..you're going to need it, because once you start getting bursted down--every second is life or death for a melee-ranged-clothy. Excitement!!

 

This build's gotten even stronger thanks to irons inputs. I really really like it!

[Areodon]

 

Ahh, now I see why you want two bars. You are wrong though, you will definitely be able to keep up Spiked Armor, the dots on Searing Strike and Fiery Breath up, and keep Weakness of Elements up on one target without having to wait for MP. The other abilities are on a need-to-use basis...which is also why they're on a second bar.

 

 

Magic u said that i will for sure can have constantly up Spiked armor, Weakness , Searing strike and Fiery breath DOTS.

DISCLAIMER : I am making math on basis of ESO skills reference sheet ( last time updated on 08.12.2013 ). I miss some formulas/info and will try to guess how some things adds up. 

 

Lets see what we will get :

 

Cost in one minute ( for the level 50 i will multiply cost with 8 ): 

1) spiked armor is 4x42 = 168 ( 8x168x79% = 1061 M/m or 17,68 sec)

2) searing strike 5x18=90 (8x90x79% =568,8 M/m or 9,48 M/s

3) fiery breath is 9x35= 315 (8x315x79% = 1990 or 33,1 M/s

4) weakness 4x35 = 140 ( 8x140x79% = 884,8 M/m or 14,7 M/sec  )

 

In one minute i have total cost of magic for level 1 = 713 minus 21% (evocation) = 589. If i want to convert it to level 50 i will multiply it with 8 and will get around 4712 magic/minute.

 

Let say that my magic pool at level 50 will be around 1400 ( 1000 + 30 points in magic + dynamic 6%). It will normally be regenerated in 33 secs. I have increased magic regeneration for 27% (dynamic and recovery). It means that i will have 1400 back in 24,09 sec. That will be 58,1m/s. To turn over my mana pool 3,36 times i need to compensate 20,43 m/s and that says i have to enchant at least 5 slots ( each slot is 4.24 m/s )with mana regeneration if each brings 10% increase of mana regeneration.  If this calculation is conservative / not correct - then ok ill have just more available slots.

 

Output in one minute for level 50 ( i will roughly multiply level 1 dmg with 15 ):

5xsearing strike  =15x5x 1,4 ( weakness to elements )x(1,07 (flame talent ) x ( 11+ 3 (kindling )* 15) = 6.291,6 DPM or 104,86 DPS

9x fiery breath  =  15x9x1,4 ( weakness to elements)x(1,07 *1,1 ( world in flames)x(5+3(kindling)*12)=9.120,57 DPM or 152 DPS per enemy . If i have 1,2 enemies in average in aoe  that will take me to 10.944 DPM or 182,41 DPS

If i combine those two ill get 17.235,6 DPM or 287,26 DPS ( if those guys are without resistance , did not mitigated/avoided anything and i haven't had crits ( let say that crit will be further on for argument sake x 2 and with prodigy let say my total crit chance is 10%).

 

What 1 magic invested  in spell is producing in Damage terms :

Searing strike = 11,061

Fiery breath   = 5,51

 

For simulation sake i will take very conservative premise and say that average guy is similar as i ( spell resistance and  spell override ) I can make estimate that 30% landed ( guy has up obsidian shield 30% , i missed something , they avoided, some of them died before dot ended )

Participation of white hits might be around 50% (thats what muscle say).

 

That give me to total of 10.341,36 + crits = 11.375,5 DPM or 189,6 DPS without some power multipliers coz i dont know what they do and how they work. When i know a bit more about power we can continue with real output results for certain builds.

 

Let speak a sec in pvp terms - if i go after tank ( i know his spell resistance will not be high like above mentioned light robe guy but ..)....

What this 189 dps says - i will need  at least 20 secs  ( his health regeneration will be around 130-150) to overcome his health pool and natural regeneration. And then healing  ( in general  - self healing and from healer )jumps in  - in other words - i dont stand fucking chance against tank at all.

 

back to pve ...

Thats all if am at shooting range and they cant touch me. And trust me they will hit me and i will need to spend mana on surviving in other words - simply can't have that kind of output.

 

I would expect to spend magic resource in bad group at least 30 % on self preservation and 20 % on support in pve. - that means that i can have 50% of time those spells up or i have to drop fiery breath  at least.

I would expect to spend magic resource in good group at least 15 % on self preservation and 10 % on support - that means that i can switch on breath 2-3 times in minute

I would expect to spend magic res in great group like 10 % on self preservation and 10 % on support.  which means that i can have breath like 70 % of the time on .

 

I short words - its not that easy to keep all those up or my aoe will be bad.  And lets not forget that i spent some slots for mana regeneration. 

 

P.S. Go through numbers and correct me if i made certain mistakes in math. 

[Musclemagic]

Hey, sorry I was AFK in the chat. Let's just say calculate the costs before calculating the estimated damage:

 

Searing Strike = 18 mp every 10 seconds.

Fiery Breath = 35 mp every 6 seconds, but you'll only use this on multi-mobs because Lava Whip is better extra-attack for single-target than Fiery Breath is--all the time--so exclude for now, we'll just calculate the single-target costs.

Weakness to Elements = 35 mp every 15 seconds.

Spiked Armor = 42 MP every 17 seconds.

Lava Whip = The remaining MP as often as necessary, so calculated afterwards.

 

42 mp every 17 seconds, 18 mp every 10 seconds, 35 mp every 15 seconds.

 

42/17 + 18/10 + 35/15 = 6.6 MP/S.

Include Evocation: 6.6 - (6.6 x .21) = 5.2

 

Base mana = 106 + 3.2 MP/S. + Recover = 106 + (3.2*1.28) = 4 MP/S regen.

 

Enchantments and set-bonuses will increase the MP you have access to, but we don't know by how much so let's not try to factor that in yet.

 

It's noble of you to try to calculate DPS but I think it's much to early for that as well. Let's take your number though, that it will take about 20 seconds to kill someone in PVP (which I think is much too long, but I have no information to support that claim).

 

If a fight lasts for 20 seconds you'll have spent (18+35+42=) (95-95x.21=) 75 mana for the first 10 seconds and then after those 10 seconds you'll need to spend another (18-18*.21=)14 --which you'll have gained (4 MP/S x 10 =) 40 mana, add this to the (106-75=) 31 mana you already have for 71 after 10 seconds--you could cast a Lava Whip for (35-35*.21=) 28 MP, bringing you down to (71-28=) 43 mana, meaning that you have plenty of mana to re-cast Weakness to Elements for (35*.21+35=) 28 mp 5 second later, and you'll have gained another 20 MP so you'll only lose (28-20=) 8 MP in that time bringing you down from 43 to 35. At this point, you won't get much duration (3 seconds) out of Spiked Armor so a Lava Whip is a much better choice if the fight's close to ending.

 

Your total damage of this 20 seconds was 2x searing for 52, lava whip 2x for 38, for 90 damage. Add crit, add spell power, add the + fire dmg and everything else, then add the targets mitigation and you'll come back at around 90 damage still. Meaning that you only need 10 damage from your fire weapon to kill your target. Of course, this is a long ass time because of their HP recovery will be massive and they will be using some defensive abilities as well, so they're likely to be able to gain this life back.

 

But, I figure that about 50% of sustained DPS will be from white hits, meaning that you're doing 180 damage in 20 seconds.

 

If they are recovering 4.5% per second, 150% the norm, and they start with 100 health, then within 20 seconds you'll have had to do (100 x .045 = 4.5 x 20 = 90 + 100 = 190 effective HP in a 20 second fight.) and it's about even, making the tank hard to kill. The thing is that their damage is probably low enough that they can't kill you either, and all things are equal.

 

But, pretend that you do this instead:

28 mp for Weakness, 12 mp for Searing, and then use the rest for Lava Whips. That's 40 initial mp and then using 28 mp whenever you can, you'll have 66 mp to start with and within 10 seconds you'll have gained 40 mana meaning you'll have 106 mp for Lava Whips within 10 seconds. 106/28mp = 3.8, so almost 4--but not quite Lava Whips.

 

Let's calculate that damage: 26 + 19x3 = 57 x 1.4 = 79.8, ~8 DPS. Add in ~80 damage from white attacks and you're at 16 DPS.

 

If the fight lasts 10 seconds then 160 damage > (100x.045 = 4.5 x 10 = 45+100 =) 145 HP in 10 seconds. Meaning you just killed that tank.

 

This is why you want to have burst damage, and you can't just rely on sustained DPS and playing defensively as a DPS. The tank WANTS the fight to last a long time. The more things you put on the bar for defense, the better the tank kills you, because that's exactly what they want you to do.

 

The point of all those numbers right now (since we can't know anything for certain) is that there are ways to overcome things even if they look too difficult at first.

 

A nightblade can put out huge bursts, but lower sustained damage than your build. So it's not really whether you have high DPS or not in PVP, it depends on a ton of things. In a group, however, which is where you'll be--hidden from those NBs, in your dungeon, you'll have to rely on group for things.

 

You won't need to use Spiked Armor all the time, especially when fighting a tank with high HP regen or something.

 

You won't need to use Fiery Breath too often probably, only in certain circumstances. In these circumstances, you'll most definitely want Spiked Armor active--but you won't want to use searing strike or weakness, so you'll have plenty of MP to use Fiery Breath every 6 seconds on multi-targets.

 

Your numbers were all right, it looked like, but it's too early to say the higher-up things because we don't know how much set-bonuses will affect things like MP and such.

 

I'm glad to have a number cruncher around, it'll be fun to run things by you later when we have solid numbers on higher levels and enchantments and everything. ^.^

 

 

EDIT: The sad fact is, that NB's specced right will still be able to out DPS in both burst and sustained up-close damage. Sorces will outdue your AOE, and they are even at range. Templars will outdue your support. DKs will outdue your survival*damage overall when they're specced for survival.

 

This build's only good if you also take inferno and go all-out dmg on your Destro-Bar... but then, yes, you will die very easily.

 

It's sad, very sad, but your best bet as a DK is tanking and there's no way around it if you truly want to min/max.

 

DKs have to use ST and MP evenly in their bar, or they'll be even more gimped for resources, and so a medium armor build might work--but that doesn't work very well with their DPS actives, so you won't benefit as much as a NB in medium. You're doomed to a S&S+All Heavy build, and if you don't like it for min/max then you should play a NB if you like being in the thick of things or a Sorce if you want to be on the outskirts.

 

I'm sorry, but it's the truth. Being a Dunmer is still your best choice by quite a lot, the extra fire damage will help buffer your weakish DPS as a tank and the +6% stam and +6% mp is perfect for S&S in heavy.. but the damage isn't as important as a tank, so still a redguard or orc is better for PVE DK tank.

 

EDIT #2: I actually think that this fire DPS will be massive because each +Power will have a lot of +dmg %'s from all the synergy where other classes don't have so much. It turns into MP vs Power, where other classes have more MP and you have more DMG amplifiers with this build. This is why you need to go as many points into MP as you can, you have the capability to do a huge amount of damage, it's worth more than points into HP (which you'll still have a solid 33% into, since you're not using St. in this build.)