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#31
Musclemagic

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I'm reposting this from DK thread to Templar thread.

 

Yeah would be nice.

But if the information I got is corret than we will only have to wait till mid february to finally play the damn game.


How is your Templer build going to look like?

 

5 light 2 heavy(chest+legs) breton, Resto/Destro, 66%HP(max) & 33%MP from leveling and then MP Regen enchants as necessary and then fill the rest with Spell Power.

Resto- 

-Ceremony

-Rune Focus

-Immovable

-Purge

-Siege Shield

*Barrier

Destro-

Rapid Maneuver

Immovable

Magelight

Restoring Aura

Solar Flare

*Meteor

 

Bar#1 is just for spamming, Rushed Ceremony x 3 targets is actually the best healing/mana ratio in the game it looks like--but Power might end up being divided between the 3 targets, so we'll have to see about that morph later after testing.

Rune Focus for the area healing bonus (+30% healing to those in area) and the self-protection. Immovable for the self protection and anti-CC. Purge for daedric curses and such, siege shield is just awesome, and then barrier supplements this build perfect as well--which is amazing because those 3 things also give +10% MP regen each (unless ultimates don't count as an "ability slotted", in which case 20% is still nice and I'd still use Barrier.)

 

With Maneuver + Immovable + Restoring Aura + Magelight, my group and I will be able to quickly/easily get places on foot. I'll definitely need to activate Restoring Aura all the time in order to keep immovable and maneuver up with any sprinting time left, if any sprinting time's available even then.

Solar Flare into a Meteor combo is hopefully all the DPS I'll need to do every once in a while. Obviously, other then that I'll have Bar#1 active while in combat.



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#32
irons

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I don't believe that the 10% magicka reg will make it in the game. It's too much compared to all the other passives which grant you a reg boni.I expect that they will also add ranks and that you than will be able to get a 5% bonus per skill.

#33
Musclemagic

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If they nerf it, I would still keep the same build. I would probably take Cleansing Ritual instead of Purge, but it isn't that much different. And, I really like Siege Shield so I'd keep that still.

 

Edit: Maybe I'd take Bone Shield instead of Siege Shield, too, in that case. Bone Shield might serve me better as a light-armor target.

 

Although, it depends on a lot of things as to which two support spells I could take there. I don't want something that I need to keep active to get benefits from--I wanted those 2 to be really passive with purpose only once in a while.. I guess I could always through Restoring Aura on there as well, and I like Eclipse.

 

But, this is all only if they heavily nerf the regen passive for pvp support.



#34
FunkheaD

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Muscle you seem to have a pretty strong grasp of what is viable and I've decided I'd like to roll a Breton Templar but my preference would be to have an awesome melee DPS/Tank build that is focused on personal survival (I'm more of a selfish solo player). MOSt of your builds focus on range it would seem.Could you suggest a build as I'm unclear on what would be ideal as far as skill and stat distribution is concerned.Thanks mate

#35
Musclemagic

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Muscle you seem to have a pretty strong grasp of what is viable and I've decided I'd like to roll a Breton Templar but my preference would be to have an awesome melee DPS/Tank build that is focused on personal survival (I'm more of a selfish solo player). MOSt of your builds focus on range it would seem.

Could you suggest a build as I'm unclear on what would be ideal as far as skill and stat distribution is concerned.

Thanks mate

 

Do you know what you want to focus on more--Tank or DPS?

 

Are you set on Breton or do you just want to be in the Daggerfall alliance? As a tankish/melee-range DPS I'd suggest Redguard instead. It's the same alliance so it wouldn't change anything for you at all.

 

I know you plan on being solo, but you might find that you're in groups a lot anyway..

 

It's easier as a NB to do this build because of their ability to stunlock, but it might work like this pretty well:

 

Redguard Templar, 5 Medium 2 Heavy, DW+Bow, I'd go high HP with some St without putting any in MP.

DW-

Restoring Aura

Evasion

Immovable

Puncturing Strikes

Whirlwind

*War Horn

Bow-

Restoring Aura

 

If you want more of a tankish templar, this would be better, but it's more for groups where there are heals going off around you and other people to DPS for you:

Orc- 7(8 with shield) heavy, S&S + 2H

S&S- weak VS spell damage

-Sun Shield or Blinding Light -- depending on if you're in a group or not. Blinding Light would be really good combined with Defensive Posture, people would be going off-balance all the time VS you so they'd be vulnerable to power attacks. Sun Shield would be good just for your own survival, but this build relies on group members to work well already so I'd really recommend just using Blinding Light right here.

-Shield Charge

-Immovable

-Rune Focus

-Defensive Posture

2H- C-C-C-Combo! Caster killer combo.

-Eclipse - Cast 1st

-Backlash - They can't interrupt this because of eclipse- the interrupts are all single-target, but Hidden Blade and Poison Arrow would work since they're not "spells" I don't think, but since this is a caster-killer bar I don't think you'd be using it against someone with Bow or DW anyway.

-Critical Charge - They can't keep you out of the 22m range because they're using an AOE (can't single target CC because of Eclipse) CC over 22m away, but I think the only ones that can do this is are Volley (morphed for a root) and Spear Shards.

-Uppercut - Again, can't interrupt.

-Reverse Slash - They're stunned right now, so do a couple power attacks and then finish them with a Reverse Slash.

Whatever health they have left, Backlash will take care of it.

They could always CC you with a PBAOE once you crit-charge, since there's a 1-sec opening--but I doubt that most people will be able to, especially if you factor in server latency, there's pretty much no way to respond to this attack. I think it will do at least 60% of the average light-armor person's health.

 

Sorry, as much as I want to work on the bow bar and such--I have to leave this unfinished, I'm falling asleep.

 

Let me know what you're thinking and I can clean things up more tomorrow to give you clearer ideas.



#36
FunkheaD

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Thanks dude! I'm kind of set on the Breton race and I'm not fussed on m DPS/tank as long as I'm in the thick of melee and alive at the end! Preference is to wield a 2 hander or S&S.Any reason on not going pure heavy armour?

#37
Musclemagic

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Thanks dude!

I'm kind of set on the Breton race and I'm not fussed on m DPS/tank as long as I'm in the thick of melee and alive at the end! Preference is to wield a 2 hander or S&S.

Any reason on not going pure heavy armour?

 

Less damage in heavy, but if you're okay with that then good! :) I wish more people wanted to use heavy, this is why I'm going Daggerfall.

 

The reason why I recommended medium/heavy first is because you want to be good at soloing--all heavy armor builds will rely on groups to really shine in any one situation.

 

This build is basically like the 2nd build I posted above, I've just thought on it a bit more:

 

Breton - 7 Heavy+1 Shield, S&S/2H, mostly HP stat while leveling, %HP regen and flat ST regen enchants. Lifesteal on 1h, mRes on shield, power on 2H (I would say fire, but against casters I think the power will be better).

S&S- Tank like a porn star

Restoring Aura - M

Rune Focus - M

Shield Charge - S

Defensive Posture - S

Immovable - S

*Nova - U

2H- Kill Casters

Restoring Aura - M

Eclipse - M

Critical Charge - S

Uppercut - S 

Reverse Slash - S

*War Horn - U

 

You should still have plenty of Stamina to block with even with Immovable up, and using Shield Charge to mess with people. 

 

If melee damage adds up for you on your S&S bar, you should maybe take an Aedric Spear ability so you can block 15-16% more melee damage, but I can't imagine that it'll be an issue to begin with..and I don't know what to exchange without ruining the bar's balance.

 

*Nova on bar 1's good because not only does it help you survive but if there's a big group you can help do a massive amount of damage at once.

 

I chose War Horn because this bar is really for killing casters, so you'll want to be able to do a couple Eclipses into a couple of the Charge -> Uppercut combos and still be able to finish them with Reverse Slashes..since you're in heavy, you probably won't have enough resources for this regularly. But, I think anyone in light armor will die super quick here, even though you're in heavy armor. Other than this you'll use the S&S bar to deal with melee users and deal with groups by simply not dying.

 

I think Templar's a really good choice for this, even if you are only using 3 of their abilities. Templar's passives and Restoring Aura work really well for a heavy armor person who also wants to be able to DPS. Everything seems to synergize pretty nicely with this build.

 

If you don't like Uppercut and Reverse Slash, you could always replace those with like.. Immovable and Momentum. Or, just replace Uppercut with Momentum if you don't like the way Uppercut works... I'm kind of iffy on it myself.

 

I tried to make this build pretty efficient and well-rounded for both survival/DPS and MP/St, so I think you'd actually be able to put a lot of your points while leveling into HP (most Heavy users will have to take a lot of MP+St.

 

Hmmm, I always go back and try to change things--and usually there are things I want to change, but I think for the purposes of either surviving or doing as much DPS as you can with Heavy Armor, this is just an all-around solid build that doesn't need anything else.



#38
FunkheaD

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Thanks Muscle those look like a good starting point - will be sure to give them a test in open beta.

 

My one concern is the lack of ranged attacks given this games siege warfare similarities with GW2.  I might have to try a bow bar as a backup at some stage.

 

Also are you planning on playing purely on PS4? Noticed you're in Australia and am looking for Aussie guilds!



#39
Musclemagic

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Thanks Muscle those look like a good starting point - will be sure to give them a test in open beta.

 

My one concern is the lack of ranged attacks given this games siege warfare similarities with GW2.  I might have to try a bow bar as a backup at some stage.

 

Also are you planning on playing purely on PS4? Noticed you're in Australia and am looking for Aussie guilds!

 

Yeah, I think a bow bar would do better than a 2H bar against most groups of opponents--but it doesn't work as well with Heavy Armor.

 

I'm trying to make a medium armor build with S&S/Bow but the S&S bar just doesn't put out enough DPS to sacrifice all the survival from heavy...

 

I'm having trouble making any medium armor with much survival though.. It would be fine if you were okay sacrificing survival for more DPS, maybe do 2H/Bow in medium armor? Good physical damage. Bow to kite melees, 2H to kill casters, bow to sit back and DPS in group PVP--like you said, almost necessary option in pvp battles unless you want to go all-out-tanky.

 

Just messing around more with the Heavy Templar build:

 

Orc, Templar, 7 Heavy, S&S/2H

S&S- To survive when you have a healer and to fight melee ranged opponents when solo - when they run switch to Bar#2 to finish them off.

Restoring Aura

Rune Focus

Immovable

Puncture -40% armor

Low Slash -15% weapon dmg and good snare

*Radial Sweep

2H- To finish off opponents, kill casters (light-armor users), gap-close, and/or to 

Restoring Aura

Eclipse

Critical Charge

Uppercut

Reverse Slash

*War Horn

 

It's still not right... bleh... I sit here for hours just trying to decide on each initial spell choice and it's not coming together very well...

 

Name: Professor Snipe

Redguard Templar 7/7 Medium 2H/Bow

2H- Multi-Target/Close-Up DPS - Power Enchant

Restoring Aura

Critical Charge

Sun Shield

Cleave

Reverse Slash

*Radial Sweep

Bow- Single Target/Ranged DPS - Frost Enchant

Restoring Aura

Eclipse

Snipe

Poison Arrow

Scatter Shot

*Soul Strike

 

Critical Charge into a group of people, following with Sun Shield and Cleave with Brawler morph. You'll be able to use Sun Shield one more time before you're OOM. Single 1 target out and whack him until you feel like you can finish it by spamming reverse slash.

 

Or, just sit back and Snipe a single-target from across the map.. 40m is really far away, look at how big 20m is when the other bow-user is using Arrow Spray and how big 5M is with Volley.. It's not quite as far as it would be in real life, but it's a pretty good distance! It will be fun to kill runners with Snipe.

 

I think that this is the best Bow DPS build for single targets. Restoring Aura + Redguard + Medium Armor = Snipe all day.

 

I also think that the 2H bar is a fucking awesome kamikaze build, lol. If you want to survive and still AOE DPS, just put Volley on your Bow bar and spam that all over instead, and then make a S&S bar#1 for survival--but it won't be as good and the S&S bar isn't that good in Medium armor. MEERRRR... We'll see, everything'll change when the game's out.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Forgot the 2nd part of your post-- I'll be playing on PC until beta's out on PS4 and then I'll be PS4 only. I've moved from AUS, I'm back in the states now, so it'll be a US guild.



#40
DocZero00

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High Elf (Tankish for all pve groups) Temple build

 

5 heavy - 1 med - 1 light

 

40% health

20% stamina

40% magicka

 

bar  #1 (fighting bar)

"1h & shield"

 

(U) nova

restoring aura

focused charge

blinding light

puncture

sun fire

 

 

bar #2 support bar

"restoration staff"

 

(U) rite of passage

rushed ceremony

cleansing ritual

force siphon

backlash

rune focus - Creates an area of self protection, gaining immunity to interrupt effects and taking less damage while the effect lasts.



#41
JustinianII

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I have been reading all of these 'build' threads with interest. I just wanted to comment that PvE is one thing but PvP is quite another. Its very hard to build 'optimal' builds for pvp because so much depends on what the opposing players do and what skills they use.

 

For example, while it might be optimal for a healer to go with light armor due to magicka regen etc, a player in light armor standing in the back with a staff might as well have a giant sign over the top of them in PvP that says 'KILL ME FIRST'. Good players know that winning a battle usually means killing the opposing healers; hell, even mediocre players know that. Plus, there will be a lot of players (especially stealthers) that will usually go for the easiest target, so light armor wearers will be their first choice (and they will avoid heavy armor wearers like the plague).

 

This means that the meta-game (trying to outguess or mislead your opponent) becomes very important. A healer with some heavy armor and/or using a non-staff weapon will be much less of a target, and therefore might get a lot more heals off (even with their lower magicka) than an 'optimal' healer in light armor, because, well, you cant heal when you're dead. Even if you start off with a non staff weapon and switch to a staff later, and even if you have a few conspicuous heavy armor pieces (chest and helm usually show up the most), that could be enough to mean you aren't targeted first and are able to get a lot more heals off. For this reason, even though I can see that might armor Templar healers will be best for PvE, in PvP there is a lot to be said for a Templar healer with some heavy armor and maybe a sword and board who moves with the melee attackers using Templar auras and area heals, along with some shield bashes etc.

 

Bottom line is that anyone who plays much pvp knows that the healers tend to die first, and even if your team wins the battle, you still may likely die. This can be pretty demoralizing to a lot of players and frankly its not that much fun, and even on a good team, there aren't a lot of mechanics in MMOs to keep healers alive other than other healers healing thru the damage (ie, a buddy tank really cant really 'guard' you well and take damage meant for you).

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.



#42
Musclemagic

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Pretty much all of the builds I personally post are for PVP because we only have information on PVP. We have all known skills for PVP but we don't know any of the PVE fights yet. 

 

A healer in heavy will be able to do at least 49% less healing, which you said is what keeps them alive. Yes, they might personally survive a bit longer in heavy but if the CC (there's a whole class that is basically dedicated to keeping targets off of healers) does their job then you will be 49% less effective to the group.

 

If they want to do any damage as well, forget about it because they'll do 42% less damage and have 5% less crit chance in heavy.

 

Templars will be targeted first almost no matter what because of how much they support the groups, even if they appear to be wearing a few heavy pieces.

 

You make several valid points, but in the end it's not worth it. Each time you change something you end up hurting yourself more than helping.

 

There's plenty of defensive abilities that should hopefully be enough for the burst in most situations when guys do get on you.

 

My current build plan on my Sorc healer includes Heavy main pieces, because it's either that or a bunch of +AR enchants. Obviously we'll need to be more defensive for PVP than PVE (at least in most games, so I'm assuming that this will be the case in ESO PVE.) But I don't think that taking non-healer items so you can heal better makes any sense number-wise. If the numbers were different, like if we got more defense than we did healing power from heavy than from light, it would make sense..but with the current numbers it doesn't work out very well doing things like this.



#43
JustinianII

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Well I hear what you are saying, but you are making some very big assumptions and I am not sure you realized that. For example, you assume that CC will keep enemies off of the healers. If they can do that in PvP, its game over, and it doesn't matter what kind of Templar you are playing because your team will win 95% of the time. Obviously if you assume your healers will not get hit much, then its a no-brainer that they should wear light and carry a staff. But that is a very big assumption.

 

Second, you assume that enemies will be able to tell from the onset which guy in (some) heavy armor is a Templar healer, as opposed to a tank. How is that even possible? I thought characters are only identified by realm. People will pick targets very quickly, and since players will target by appearance, well, its very likely that characters in light armor and staff will get targeted first.

 

Anyway, I totally agree that a healer with staff and light armor will heal for more than a healer wearing some heavy, and I agree that a fighter in medium will do more damage than a fighter in heavy... IF they live long enough. But thats a big IF, because light and even medium armor targets will tend to be targeted before heavy armor wearers. Any decent player knows not to target the tank, and save the tanks for last, while killing the healers, casters and dps enemies first (pretty much in that order). Your work with the numbers is very helpful, but it seems like you are assuming that the enemy's behavior is a given and that its possible to crunch the numbers and determine an 'optimal' build, when in fact the enemy's behavior is NOT a given and their choice of targets may change based on what they see. Thus there is some tradeoff between an output-maximizing build versus a build with less output but more defense (and thus becoming a less conspicuous target).

 

 

 

 



#44
Musclemagic

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As far as telling the difference between classes, I was thinking that armor would appear differently on each class but IIRC it's actually just different for each race, so that's a good point.

 

You're also right that in PvP DPS will probably be better off in mixed with heavy. With a healer it's different than a DPS, because a healer can survive longer the more heals they can put out. "an output-maximizing build versus a build with less output but more defense" - In this case, the output is defensive. But, remember, my Sorc healer build is wearing mixed with heavy for this very reason, so it's not like I actually disagree with you.

 

I didn't mean that they'd rarely get hit, but fights look like they'll last for quite a while in this game so it's not as if they'll get bursted down in one stunlock. If they have enough healing they can just heal themselves up after the burst, so for a pure healer if you look straight at the numbers there's no way for heavy armor to be better than light for them in almost any situation except for against bad odds or if the other team is just flat better at working together than your team, in which case you'd lose anyway.

 

As far as the builds go, of course there's not one build to overcome every situation. There is however always going to be one build that overcomes the most amount of situations possible. If you can admit that some builds are better than others, then it's logical that there must be one build that is the very best on average.

 

Although this build will change depending on what build types most people end up using, and there are multiple best builds to combo with other builds to form better builds within a team..

 

Like, we don't know..maybe a complete armor of 100% weapon damage Heavy Armor Argonians with Resto Staves will be unstoppable in a group together because they would be hard to kill, healing each other constantly, and could coordinate single-target attacks well while AOE healing meaning they could slowly but surely pick things off.

 

Seriously, we don't know what could counter something as simple as this, but it all depends on your group composition.

 

If you're soloing then I'll agree that you are much better off with some heavy pieces, but if you're in a well coordinated group with high control and support then you as a healer are definitely better off in light armor. It depends on both your team and the enemy team, if they are 4 NBs in medium with 1 piece of heavy for immovable then you're fucked if you're in light and you're much better off in heavy. There's no way your team of X amount of people would be able to kill all 4 before they kill you in light. But, give one of your guys magelight and get another healer on your team?

 

I think we are both agreeing at this point, that it's not a guarantee that light will be better than heavy in all situations, but if you are a decent player who can use their surroundings and you have a decent group then I'd say at least 4/5 times Light will be better. This is coordinated group PVP only though. For solo you'll definitely want a few heavy and S&S isn't a bad option for a Temp healer going solo in Cyrodiil either.

 

Thanks for the post, it's good that people realize this.

 

Also, thanks for making me realize that we won't be able to tell classes apart until they cast.. I hadn't given that a thought before. :)



#45
JustinianII

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I agree about being in small coordinated groups. That's a different story than large chaotic battles, and I totally agree that it makes more sense to optimize builds like you are doing to do one thing very well, because you can count on your groupmates to do their job. In large battles that is a lot less likely to happen - for example people will be aoe'ing and breaking your (or your friend's) cc.

 

My overall point is just that your likelihood of being targeted is not a given, and will vary to some extent based on your appearance and perceived role. People in light armor with robes are usually target #1, both because its crucial to kill the healers, and because many dps types go for the easiest kill they see.

 

 

I did have one question, what is the current status of the sword and board ability 'Defensive Posture'? In some places it is listed as boosting armor and spell resist and reducing damage when slotted, but in other places it is listed as a skill that helps blocking. The first way could be a really sweet skill for a heavy armor/melee healer who fights along side the dps, but the second way seems more of a pure tank skill. Any idea which definition is more current?

 

 






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