Min/Max Combos (Very Early Theorycrafting)

[irons]

But the Sorc tank would get access to Bound Armor and/or Lightning Form - both costing Magicka rather than Stamina (so you basically double dip into two resources to increase your survivability). Sorcerers passives can reduce both stamina and magicka cost of all abilities as well as giving him better magicka regeneration -so he would probably have an easier time to keep up Annulment against a boss that is a caster. 

I took that into calculation. Lightning Form is actually a very expensive skills compared to others + the DK has also magicka based dmg mitigation skills.

 

 

Not before end game, no.

And not even at max level -at release.

 

I have the feeling that ESO is more "casual" friendly that let you play whatever style you want and still be somewhat efficient. That there will be little or no need to play highly optimized race-class-weapon-role combinations. From what little dungeon crawling I've seen it seem as if you can get away without having a dedicated tank at all... shrug

That's the same way I feel it to be. The beauty on my build is if needed I could allways switch to full heavy armor the only thing missing would be 300 HP, but therefore I don't have to worry too much about my stamina.

 

 

If the English plural form of Bonus is Bonuses; What is the English plural form of Focus then...?

I always assumed it was Foci. 

...is it Focuses??

(English is not my first language)

Basically it's the same like before foci and focuses are both correct forms but in that case focuses is the more common form.

(English also isn't my first language)

[Xenon]

Radius and Radii then?

Radiuses?? 

[irons]

Radius and Radii then?

Radiuses?? 

Come on just use google to find out :-)

[Musclemagic]

Good morning, thanks for giving me something to read when I woke up.

 

If you guys think about other games then you'll realize that you really do need to not only have a specific class tank in specific fights, but even within that class they often need to re-spec for each dungeon in order to overcome specific dungeon mechanics. For the endgame content I do think you'll want full heavy for full mitigation, not necessarily because of the Armor stat, but because the set bonuses for heavy will be geared for tanking rather than damage and such on medium.

 

You can calculate it out right now, but it'll change when we know what the hard numbers on enchantments are. I do agree that medium armor would allow you to keep evasion/immovable up a bit more and that might give you more mitigation in the long run, but with regen enchantments it might not even be necessary.

 

I do think you'll want at least 1 piece of Medium for Evasion though, in which case I'd take 2 that give a nice 2-piece set bonus. I am almost certain that if I'm tanking I'll be using 5h+2m because Evasion is really strong, and taking 1 piece of something when I could get a bonus for taking another where a bonus most likely won't fit in with 6 heavy is probably going to be better than just 6h/1m.

 

DK is the logical choice for damage mitigation. But, for overcoming mechanics (which has always been the most important factor in tanking) then DK doesn't necessarily have better options than say a Sorc who can bolt escape (Puncture then Bolt Escape, repeat until the DPS kill the target. This could be a common necessity.) and then maybe winged twilight will be a nice addition to tanking through a morph. (Seems likely, since Twilight was initially supposed to be tanky.) 

 

In another situation it might be better for a NB to stand away from the group while tanking, Puncture and then Cloak. The target would then run toward the rest of the group for 2.5s and then the NB would reappear and the target would run back to the NB for 2.5s (since it's a 5s taunt), meaning that it wouldn't be able to do damage in melee range anyway for pretty much 5 seconds. Like we kind of said before, I don't think that most interrupts, slows, and incapacitates will work on the bigger boss-fights..so that's something to take into account when weighing mitigation.

 

But, we have no idea what mechanics the dungeons will bring us.. this is why I only really care about PVP theorycraft at this point, because that's the only thing we have an idea of what the enemy will be like.

 

In PVP I think that you're right on, irons, that you'll have plenty of mitigation and you'd do better overall by getting more damage and utility as a DK tank in PVP.

[Musclemagic]

Sorry for the DP, but I forgot to include this thought:

 

I actually think that the 3% base regen won't be modified through extra % regen, but that all the +flat regen will be modified by further +% regen. You feel me?

 

3%+(X*Y%) where X is the flat regen you have and Y is 1+the percent of extra regen you get.

 

For example, if you have 100 stamina you'll automatically have 3/second. If you also have +10 regen from something, then you'll have 13/second. But, if you have something that gives +50% stamina regen then you'd have 3+(10*1.5) for 18.

[irons]

Like I said before I did the math and I'm pretty sure that a DK in medium armor will be able to tank all master dungeons because you don't get much more tanky if you go with full heavy armor.

 

 

Sorry for the DP, but I forgot to include this thought:

 

I actually think that the 3% base regen won't be modified through extra % regen, but that all the +flat regen will be modified by further +% regen. You feel me?

 

3%+(X*Y%) where X is the flat regen you have and Y is 1+the percent of extra regen you get.

 

For example, if you have 100 stamina you'll automatically have 3/second. If you also have +10 regen from something, then you'll have 13/second. But, if you have something that gives +50% stamina regen then you'd have 3+(10*1.5) for 18.

I think it's the opposit. That the hp reg(%) only influences the base HP reg and that the hp reg(fix amount) doesn't get effected by it.

But it could also be that all get's boosted.

[Musclemagic]

Like I said before I did the math and I'm pretty sure that a DK in medium armor will be able to tank all master dungeons because you don't get much more tanky if you go with full heavy armor.

 

 

I think it's the opposit. That the hp reg(%) only influences the base HP reg and that the hp reg(fix amount) doesn't get effected by it.

But it could also be that all get's boosted.

 

I don't think you'll be able to tank in full medium, because the set bonuses won't be focused on tanking like heavy armor set bonuses will be. I think that it's within these set bonuses that the gap between DK and other tanks will get smaller. Because I believe the armor bonuses will be a big factor, and that heavy armor bonuses will be for tanking. If this is accurate, then you won't be able to get away with medium armor even if the armor value isn't much less.

 

And yeah, it's just speculation. I wish we could just straight up ask a dev how regen's calculated. lol

[irons]

I don't think you'll be able to tank in full medium, because the set bonuses won't be focused on tanking like heavy armor set bonuses will be. I think that it's within these set bonuses that the gap between DK and other tanks will get smaller. Because I believe the armor bonuses will be a big factor, and that heavy armor bonuses will be for tanking. If this is accurate, then you won't be able to get away with medium armor even if the armor value isn't much less. And yeah, it's just speculation. I wish we could just straight up ask a dev how regen's calculated. lol

Interesting so you think the important factor will be set boni.While I can see that I personal thought that the most powerful set boni would be available through master dungeon gear and to get those you would allready have to be able to finnish them without those boni.From what I have seen the armor difference looks like this.Light Armor: 0.6Medium Armor: 1Heavy Armor: 1.2

 

/Edit:

I forgot something while you are surely right that heavy armor boni more likely (there will also be some for DPS)focus on tanks that a medium armor could have a set boni like evasion which might could be just as good as the tank bonus

[Guest Nuke]

Alright after seeing the fire Mage dk setup I was sold. So let's say I create this class to be the best glass nuke it can be. Obviously I'll have a realistic amount of health, but is there a point where having too much magicka would be pointless? In other words, is magicka only good for having the ability to cast more spells or does it also increase spell damage/crit chance?

[irons]

Alright after seeing the fire Mage dk setup I was sold. So let's say I create this class to be the best glass nuke it can be. Obviously I'll have a realistic amount of health, but is there a point where having too much magicka would be pointless? In other words, is magicka only good for having the ability to cast more spells or does it also increase spell damage/crit chance?

It doesn't increase your damage (not in a direct way). However more magicka allows you do use your abilities more often. That's why you might should focus on magicka regeneration.

[Musclemagic]

Alright after seeing the fire Mage dk setup I was sold. So let's say I create this class to be the best glass nuke it can be. Obviously I'll have a realistic amount of health, but is there a point where having too much magicka would be pointless? In other words, is magicka only good for having the ability to cast more spells or does it also increase spell damage/crit chance?

 

As pure damage caster, with all MP abilities, I'd recommend going high MP for sure. You'll still probably want Dark Exchange. You'll be able to take expensive spells and almost never have to use normal weapon attacks (that do less damage than spells).

[Terhix]

As pure damage caster, with all MP abilities, I'd recommend going high MP for sure. You'll still probably want Dark Exchange. You'll be able to take expensive spells and almost never have to use normal weapon attacks (that do less damage than spells).

 

No Dark Exchange on DK .

[irons]

No Dark Exchange on DK .

But he could use Entropy :-)

[Musclemagic]

No Dark Exchange on DK .

 

.... I'm not thinking clearly right now apparently, haha! Good call! XD

 

 

But he could use Entropy :-)

 

Neither is Irons. I don't feel so bad anymore. /cheer!

 

 

 

Honestly though, Nuke, I wouldn't dedicate yourself to using that build quite yet. It'll definitely be good damage in PVE, but that was a really early build idea and I don't think it's that great of a concept anymore.

What is it that you like about it? We can definitely make a better build for you then that if we know what you're looking for.

[Guest Nuke]

Ahh it's no biggy, I just want a squishy class that can fling some crazy damage. The class I've been putting together that looks pretty cool is a Daedric summoner in heavy armor with a two handed wep. Sorry for all the questions, but with that class could I not just put enough points into magicka to be able to summon pets and throw the rest in stam? Anyway if anybody wants to put a class together try that one out, I'd like to see why you do differently.

[irons]

 

Neither is Irons. I don't feel so bad anymore. /cheer!

 

Entropy used to give you magicka. I don't check the damn spreadsheet every day.

[Musclemagic]

Entropy used to give you magicka. I don't check the damn spreadsheet every day.

 

Haa! I was just teasing!

 

 

Ahh it's no biggy, I just want a squishy class that can fling some crazy damage. The class I've been putting together that looks pretty cool is a Daedric summoner in heavy armor with a two handed wep. Sorry for all the questions, but with that class could I not just put enough points into magicka to be able to summon pets and throw the rest in stam? Anyway if anybody wants to put a class together try that one out, I'd like to see why you do differently.

 

2h summoner in heavy.. interesting. Not much synergy going on, but in Heavy you won't have many resources so having pets is a good way to go about not requiring a lot. Anything in Heavy isn't really going to be squishy, but that's not a bad thing, I think something like this would work. It's not exactly high damage output, but your 2H swinging for a bit more--would work better with Haste though as a NB.. Summon Shade/Haste instead of two pets.. You'd get 1 pet still anyway, . You'd be able to spam Critical Charge, too, for burst..it's actually pretty good damage per resource. So maybe instead of taking Momentum you take Mage's Fury...

 

Pet 1

Pet 2

Critical Charge

Momentum

Immovable

 

Yeah, I think either:

NB-

Shade

Critical Charge or Teleport Strike

Haste

Momentum

Immovable

 

OR

 

Sorce-

Pet 1

Pet 2

Critical Charge

Mage's Fury

Immovable

 

The trick would just be getting out of the 3m minimum range for Critical Charge spam.

 

It all depends on what the morph abilities are though. Without the morphs, NB has a clear advantage if shade and sorce pets do the same damage.

[Guest Nuke]

Sry wasn't clear, meant I was gonna make a squishy fire dk class for shits. Main class is the one I'm talking about and you've pretty much got the same setup I did. NB probably would be better, but the idea of 2h heavy armor dude surrounded with pets is too much for me to pass up. Might get boring with pets doing all the work but oh well. One thing I was curious about was how overload is going to workout. Turns light and heavy attacks into empowered versions that cost ultimate? Not sure if that just means every kind of attack you have, but it sounds pretty nasty with a 2-hander, especially if it worked with critical charge. If not I'll just go with storm atronach and be happy with another pet haha

[Guest Nuke]

Another option may be having the 2h setup to go for casters/kiters. Then pulling out a 1h/shield that's slotted with the 2 pets and survivability for anyone running after you. Could just try and stay alive while the pets do the work haha. Idk just trying to think outside the box.

[Oberon]

One thing I was curious about was how overload is going to workout. Turns light and heavy attacks into empowered versions that cost ultimate? Not sure if that just means every kind of attack you have, but it sounds pretty nasty with a 2-hander, especially if it worked with critical charge. If not I'll just go with storm atronach and be happy with another pet haha

 

Light and heavy attacks are the standard free attacks that you get with every weapon.  They aren't the same as the active abilities that cost Magicka or Stamina, like Mage's Fury or Critical Charge.

[Guest Stig]

Do you have a generic tank build for a DK Sword Board tank? (PvE) I plan to run Sword and shield with Draconic Power and Ardent flames when I swap my shield for another sword. Plan on playing as a Nord as well. Would be awesome!

[Theoryexpert]

I see a lot of misinformation with this thread. Why are some people saying that pairing magicka abilities with stamina abilities is inefficient? For example using a 2 handed sword, and a destruction staff as your alternate. As far as damage goes, your power determines that and its the same for both spells and physical attacks. The only thing determining the size of your pools is your stat allocations and passives.

 

There is no reason you can't pair any two weapons together effectively. What will make your build useable or not has more to do with the abilities you selected on your hotbar and if they meld well with the type of build you created.

 

Can anyone provide sufficient evidence otherwise?

[irons]

I see a lot of misinformation with this thread. Why are some people saying that pairing magicka abilities with stamina abilities is inefficient? For example using a 2 handed sword, and a destruction staff as your alternate. As far as damage goes, your power determines that and its the same for both spells and physical attacks. The only thing determining the size of your pools is your stat allocations and passives. There is no reason you can't pair any two weapons together effectively. What will make your build useable or not has more to do with the abilities you selected on your hotbar and if they meld well with the type of build you created. Can anyone provide sufficient evidence otherwise?

Your information's are a couple of months old just watch the character progression video and you will see that the split it up.

[Theoryexpert]

I still see no reason not to use both a 2 handed sword and a staff on a dragon knight for example. Weakness to elements is a must have spell for a fire based dragon knight, and not using a destruction staff as your secondary severely gimps you. Even if you only switch weapons to cast that one spell and then go back to your 2 hander, its worth it.

[Guest Nusklenagik]

Because weapon power and spell power are both passive abilities either chosen based on cLvl/passives for SP or what weapon you're using/passives for WP, and we don't have much control over it even at end-game, no weapon is better than another for anyone except if you're going medium armor you want to use more weapon abilities, etc.. there are only a couple truisms, like Resto Staff is better than Destro Staff unless you really want to use Destro Staff abilities (but you shouldn't.)

 

Bow will be better than resto/destro while fighting people in light armor.. but white damage doesn't much make a difference unless you're sneaking, and the bow abilities aren't that strong themselves.

 

Sneak is good for all classes, but only usable with white damage on ranged attacks even really with a nb using Cloak, so it doesn't matter if you're in medium armor--you still need a ranged attack for sneak attacking effectively, so light-armor users with either a staff or bow can do just as much sneak attack damage.

 

Mark Target increases dmg taken, but spell like blur, evasion, and blind are unaffected. If you have mitigation that isn't AR/SP based then you'd have a huge advantage with Mark Target, otherwise the only advantage would be if you were fighting a healer or someone that was less damage-focused than you.

 

If there's a 40% reduction of mRes and AR though from puncture, and 1h+s does nearly 90% of the damage as 2h or dw (the same as ranged weapons), then consider than puncture would lower the MR and AR for the attacks from all members in the group... if you're pvping with melee, your best weapon choice is hands down 1h+s, you also get a 60% snare and a charge with the most utility. Basically, utility is and always will be king in PVP.. It's no exception in this game.

 

Yeah, you could go medium armor with 1h+s.. you'd be able to case more Defensive Postures and such.. but you're probably even still better off going heavy and blocking a lot while the people in light armor tear up all the noobs in medium and even heavy.

 

The thing is, unless they change a LOT, light armor in this game is the best armor type by a huge difference. Kiting and doing just as much damage at the same time is stronger in this game than chasing and doing bursts of damage when you get to the target. The only way to overcome this as a melee is probably as a 1h+s in heavy with high mres and spamming defensive posture, or to be a NB with Mark Target and using Blur/Evasion/Sparks/Teleport Strike/Haste with high offensive stats and playing extremely offensively.. If you think you can get by without sparks then a 2h build would be better for chasing, crit charge would do more damage to light-users as well as being your preferred resource so you can chase more. Something like Blur/Evasion/Crit Charge/Haste/Momentum.. I just hope that 30% mitigation is enough to overcome an epic kite build. Sure, a bow would work, Blur/Evasion/Volley/Scatter/Snipe or something. This way you don't need to chase and such..

 

These strats just aren't as strong though, because honestly... we end up using skills for damage a lot more than white hits, so really the only good builds are high resource ones like sorc/nb with dark exchange or haste+siphoning strikes and then damage abilities that are effective... So to be effective we throw light armor and a resto staff on our NB, something like Haste+Siphoning+Strife+Entropy+Cripple.. but it's not enough utility to kite melee, so you're screwed there.. it's just not possible for anything to be as good as a sorc in light armor. As a NB, nothing's spammable at range except strife but that doesn't end up working out well.. so again, you're relying on white damage while the sorc is blowing shit up and having great AOE at the same time.