Min/Max Combos (Very Early Theorycrafting)

[Rally]

Another thingIf gloves are the only armor piece which can be entchanted with power increase. Do you think that I could tank with 5 pieces medium armor and 2 pieces hevay armor (chest & legs) where 6 armor pieces are entchanted with HP reg?

 

A tank has to do a few main things: Hold Aggro and Mitegrate Dmg

If u can taunt for 15s with a low cost skill, i think the challenge for tanking doesn't  come with holdig aggro/dealing dmg.

Ur reason to get 5 pieces of MA would be the dmg increase/stam regen, I'd assume.

But a tank has to mitegrate dmg effectively.If u can tank in MA, where does the challenge to be a good tank come from?Hope u know what I mean.

[Xenon]

Only reason i see for wearing anything but 7 pieces of heavy armor while being a traditional main tank would be to get access to Evade and/or Annulment (depending on what you are tanking). I don't see any reason to ever wear less than 5 pieces of heavy armor while being a traditional main tank.

 

Enchantments are not restricted to the type of armor-class (light, medium, heavy) you are enchanting (to my knowledge).

Why wear armor that offer less survivability...?

 

Do we really have reason to believe that a tank will be so Stamina-starved that he can't keep using Puncture once every 5-7 seconds to keep two-three targets away from the healer...?

[Rally]

Do we really have reason to believe that a tank will be so Stamina-starved that he can't keep using Puncture once every 5-7 seconds to keep two-three targets away from the healer...?

every 5 secs would be a regen of ~45 S/s, which is totaly doable.45 S/s is basereg for 1500S and 3% regen.If u go full HA and s&b, blocking costs will be 45% reduced, at best.Nothing more to do as a tank...

[irons]

I will break it down for you.Heavy armor:5% more dmg mitigation (2% effective dmg mitigation)5% more healing5% more dmg (will be made up with 10% higher crit rate and 10% higher attack speed)20% ( more HP reg is only worth 7.62HP/s)blocking cost 20% less (made up with higher stamina reg, block is allready cheaper through Sword/shield passive, and dodge)more armorSo what I really lose is 5% healing and X amount of armor.The reason for me to go with 5 pieces medium and 2 heavy (chest & legs) is to deal more dmg. Because as a Tank I want to be as Tanky as needed with as much dmg as possible. + That way I would only need 7 armor pieces for my DK and not 12.

[Rally]

If you want to raid in ESO, u probably wont be able to do end tier dungeons in 2/5 HA/MA.Low tier dungeons wont be a problem with this setup. And PvP would work with 2/5.

[irons]

I know it's sound unlogical at the first glance but just think it through.

 

The 2% dmg mitigation as well as the less than 8HP/s doesn't really matter.

The 5% less healing could be pushing your healing a little bit more.

But the only critical factor is the armor you lose, however you use Chest and Legs which give you the most armor in heavy that way way you don't lose too much armor.

 

So basically you don't really lose much tankyness at all.

 

Another argument is (that with the amount of dmg mitigation my DK build has) that if this build isn't able to tank with 5m/2h than most other tank builds with 7h also won't be able to tank. Because they won't reach the lvl of dmg mitigation which my build has even without full heavy armor.

[Musclemagic]

I think that if you go 5 heavy and 2 small-pieces of medium, like in my first post on this topic where I said just boots and gloves, then you won't get that much less armor and the potential benefits are possibly greater depending on the set-bonus. And, possibly using Evasion if you're keen on that (like I am).

[irons]

I think that if you go 5 heavy and 2 small-pieces of medium, like in my first post on this topic where I said just boots and gloves, then you won't get that much less armor and the potential benefits are possibly greater depending on the set-bonus. And, possibly using Evasion if you're keen on that (like I am).

Dodging is better than block but I'm more keen on the 10% attack speed.

 

I thought that through and my DK build stays more tanky than most other tank builds with full heavy armor.

 

And I just can't see Zenimax to design dungeons so that only a few builds are able to Tank master dungeons, that would be kind of against their game design.

I would want them to go real hardcore with dungeons and raids but I think they are going to be more casual.

[Rally]

If the 10% as increase is general animation increase like in most mmos, it would make lots of sense.Faster blocking, faster follow ups, etc. In the end u might end up with better tankyness because u can time ur block way better.... 

I do really like the idea of going 5/2 MA/HA, but i might miss out on those 7/7 armor bonuses we don't know yet and don't know how strong they are.

[irons]

If the 10% as increase is general animation increase like in most mmos, it would make lots of sense.Faster blocking, faster follow ups, etc. In the end u might end up with better tankyness because u can time ur block way better.... 

I do really like the idea of going 5/2 MA/HA, but i might miss out on those 7/7 armor bonuses we don't know yet and don't know how strong they are.

I didn't even thought about that, I just thought about the dmg increase.

 

Those boni will be very interesting.

Normally the last boni is the strongest one but how good will that one fit into your build or do you gain the full bonus ones you wear 5+ pieces?

[Draconian]

I've never heard anything about 7/7 armor set boni, but there was one interview where one of the devs said that item sets will come in 3 pieces. 

 

Of special armor sets, an imperial armor set and the famous nightingale set have been "confirmed" (see link) and I wanna bet that those kind of set will come in 7 pieces - forcing you to go 100% one armor type if you want to reap the benefits.

 

http://elderscrollsonline.info/news/armor-sets-changing-characters-appearance

[Xenon]

Heavy armor might or might not end up with a lot more armor than medium. Like twice as much mitigation or potentially even a lot more than that. If the survival difference is small than you might as well go medium for more stamina or even light for more magicka. Both stamina and magicka as a resource can be used for dps but also survivability (such as one hand and shield abilities or Dragon Knight class abilities).But then you don't really need a dedicated tank at all in the first place....I think you will need to go mostly plate on dungeons that you are trying to beat and then go mostly medium or even a mix of medium and light for dungeons you already have on farm status. There are no ranged taunt in the game. If it were then we would have the option to build a light tank that would kite, snare and taunt without ever getting hit by melee. Used that a lot in swtor, wow and various lesser known morpgs.

[irons]

I just looked it up.

 

Medium Hands vs Heavy Hands.

177 vs 216 armor

 

not that huge

[Xenon]

1500 health from going all out health or 1000 health from going zero health (and instead magicka and/or stamina) is not that huge either.But if you are going to main tank content that you have not beat yet then everything ads up...small party size of just 4 people might be important that tank and healer can help with dps. But that is assuming eso will have boss encounters with enrage counters or simular time pressure mechanics.

[Francis]

...But let's get to the important gist here. "Boni" sounds very peculiar. Who, in the name of Christ, influenced you people to say it like that?

[irons]

...But let's get to the important gist here. "Boni" sounds very peculiar. Who, in the name of Christ, influenced you people to say it like that?

the plural of the latin word bonus is bonusse or boni

 

 

1500 health from going all out health or 1000 health from going zero health (and instead magicka and/or stamina) is not that huge either.But if you are going to main tank content that you have not beat yet then everything ads up...small party size of just 4 people might be important that tank and healer can help with dps. But that is assuming eso will have boss encounters with enrage counters or simular time pressure mechanics.

The thing is I think that a DK can get away with 5 pieces medium armor.

From the balance aspect I think that they designed their encounter so that a normal tank (heavy armor sword and shield) from all classes can tank. However a DK has more survibility than other classes that's why I think that a DK can get away with 5 pieces medium armor.

[Xenon]

...But let's get to the important gist here. "Boni" sounds very peculiar. Who, in the name of Christ, influenced you people to say it like that?

 

I am pretty sure the correct plural form of Bonus is Boni.

One Bonus.

Two Boni.

 

Same as one focus. Two foci.

 

Why you feel that is "very peculiar"?

 

 

The thing is I think that a DK can get away with 5 pieces medium armor.

From the balance aspect I think that they designed their encounter so that a normal tank (heavy armor sword and shield) from all classes can tank. However a DK has more survibility than other classes that's why I think that a DK can get away with 5 pieces medium armor.

 

My point was that if you are crawling dungeons that don't really push your limit... then you can probably get away with a lot of stuff. Maybe you don't even need anyone with sword n board and maybe you can get away with a restoration staff as a back up weapon or maybe a DPS templar (without restoration staff) that only have a single heal-related ability on his hot bar.

 

Maybe ESO encounters are not even build around having a main tank with the main purpose keeping all mobs away from the healer and minimize party overall damage taken while DPS do their thing without standing still in fire and a single dedicated healer spam healing the tank, preferable from a safe distance.

 

But IF there will be dungeons that really push the limit. Where you need every buff you can get. Every advantage. THEN it feel very natural to select a tank that focused all his attribute points into health. That picked dragon knight as a starting class. That picked a race with survival focused passive stats (for daggerfall that would be Orc and for Ebonheart that would be Argonian or Nord. All Aldmeri races make equally good tanks). That wield one hand and a shield. Wear heavy armor and only pick a piece of medium if he can fit Evasion on his hot bar and only a single piece of light armor for annulment if a particular boss is a caster. Picked all 5 active skills that focus on taunts and avoid and/or reduce damage taken (in various ways; self heal, shield, buff, debuff, cc....).

[Francis]

...Yeah, do yourselves a favor, don't rely on message board linguists. I'd have to believe there's an exception to the two-syllable rule, if you could somehow catch my drift.

[irons]

But IF there will be dungeons that really push the limit. Where you need every buff you can get. Every advantage. THEN it feel very natural to select a tank that focused all his attribute points into health. That picked dragon knight as a starting class. That picked a race with survival focused passive stats (for daggerfall that would be Orc and for Ebonheart that would be Argonian or Nord. All Aldmeri races make equally good tanks). That wield one hand and a shield. Wear heavy armor and only pick a piece of medium if he can fit Evasion on his hot bar and only a single piece of light armor for annulment if a particular boss is a caster. Picked all 5 active skills that focus on taunts and avoid and/or reduce damage taken (in various ways; self heal, shield, buff, debuff, cc....).

I just did the math with a Highelf Sorccerer Tank full health full heavy armor sword and shield vs my Redguard DK 5 medium 2 heavy armor 30 points into stamina an 19 in health.

The Sorccerer takes about 2% less dmg (if you calculate the 20% more armor as 20% less dmg).

However my DK gets more healing has way more ressources and would be able to keep up Evasion and Immoveable which the Sorc Tank couldn't.

 

I will do the math for a full DK Tank compared to mine tomorrow, but what you seem to forget is the huge advantage which comes with the higher stamina reg.

 

 

Let me ask you a personal question.

Do you personally think that there will be a dungeon in ESO which will require a DK Tank who completly focuses on tanking?

[irons]

Just calculated a little bit. Pure HP tank builds have to drop Immoveable othwerwise the run out of stamina to quickly.

But the dmg mitigation lost by this skill is worth more than the dmg mitigation you win through the higher armor rating.

The remaining advantage is the higher HP reg.

 

I'm quite confident that my dmg Tank will be able to Tank all dungeons just fine.

[David]

the plural of the latin word bonus is bonusse or boni

 

I am pretty sure the correct plural form of Bonus is Boni.

One Bonus.

Two Boni.

 

...Yeah, do yourselves a favor, don't rely on message board linguists. I'd have to believe there's an exception to the two-syllable rule, if you could somehow catch my drift.

 

4 semesters of college Latin checking in. Can confirm that the plural of "bonus" is "boni". Caveat: in Latin, the endings change depending on the word's use in a sentence. "Boni" is correct when used as the plural subject, so the following gets an A+.

 

Those boni will be very interesting.

 

Though since we're speaking English it's just "bonuses," so I can understand why it sounds peculiar.

 

 

Carry on, gents.

[Francis]

I believe the colloquial evolution of semantic continuity precedes whatever originally mandated "boni" into existence.

 

[David]

I believe the colloquial evolution of semantic continuity precedes whatever originally bastardized "boni" into existence.

 

[How the fuck do you post a picture?]

 

Meh. Yeah, sure, whatever, use boni then. I never will. Carry on...

 

Nah, you're right - it should just be "bonuses" in English. Boni is straight-up Latin (and possibly other Romance languages). I don't know why we're speaking Latin for particular words, but it did bring a smile to my face since I never thought I would ever see an instance of it "in the wild."

 

To post an image, you just need to copy the image URL (ending with an image extension, e.g. .jpg .png .gif) and paste it into the box that pops up when you hit the image / photo esque button that's next to the hyperlink button in the editor.

 

Anyways, I'll bow out of this thread since I'm breaking my own rules and carrying everything off topic.

[Francis]

Nah, you're right - it should just be "bonuses" in English. Boni is straight-up Latin (and possibly other Romance languages). I don't know why we're speaking Latin for particular words, but it did bring a smile to my face since I never thought I would ever see an instance of it "in the wild."

 

To post an image, you just need to copy the image URL (ending with an image extension, e.g. .jpg .png .gif) and paste it into the box that pops up when you hit the image / photo esque button that's next to the hyperlink button in the editor.

 

Thanks. Can't believe I missed that. I've also edited the wording to keep things Calvin-and-Hobbes-friendly along with the picture.

 

 

 

Anyways, I'll bow out of this thread since I'm breaking my own rules and carrying everything off topic.

 

I'm quite the stranger to forums, but it sounds like somebody's got a ruler up their rear end. C'mon, a little anarchy never hurt anyone.

[Xenon]

 

However my DK gets more healing has way more ressources and would be able to keep up Evasion and Immovable which the Sorc Tank couldn't.

 

But the Sorc tank would get access to Bound Armor and/or Lightning Form - both costing Magicka rather than Stamina (so you basically double dip into two resources to increase your survivability). Sorcerers passives can reduce both stamina and magicka cost of all abilities as well as giving him better magicka regeneration -so he would probably have an easier time to keep up Annulment against a boss that is a caster. 

 

You can also play a redguard sorcerer tank just like you can play a redguard DK tank, so the passive stamina recovery from race is not really an issue when comparing two base classes...

 

Having said that, I do think DK make better tanks; but that assumption is only based on the defensive nature of all draconic power passives (and the rather long duration of spiked armor making it rather easy to keep up 24/7).

 

 

 

Let me ask you a personal question.

Do you personally think that there will be a dungeon in ESO which will require a DK Tank who completly focuses on tanking?

 

Not before end game, no.

And not even at max level -at release.

 

I have the feeling that ESO is more "casual" friendly that let you play whatever style you want and still be somewhat efficient. That there will be little or no need to play highly optimized race-class-weapon-role combinations. From what little dungeon crawling I've seen it seem as if you can get away without having a dedicated tank at all... shrug

 

But eventually, maybe... 

That all comes down to how much time and effort ESO is willing to spend just to cater the top 5% elitist crowd.

 

It is a two fold issue. If you don't cater for them then they will leave for another game that will offer more high end challenges -and that might start a downward spiral. If you cater them too much then you will pour resources into areas that the majority of the player base will never even experience.

 

 

 

 

If the English plural form of Bonus is Bonuses; What is the English plural form of Focus then...?

I always assumed it was Foci. 

...is it Focuses??

(English is not my first language)