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Min/Max Combos (Very Early Theorycrafting)


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#226
Soaks

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Oh I forgot, I really like your build the only thing is I prefer a self heal instead of another dmg reduction skill (Spiked Armor) but that's something which will need some endgame testing before we can say what will be better.

Ye, Dragons Blood could probably work as well in many cases, and probably a lot better for soloing /PvP.

 

Spiked Armor costs a lot less Magicka so I would be able to keep it up more. It would give me the + 12% received healing in addition to giving me 30% dmg reduction and some dmg.

It also seems less situational for dungeons.

My Magicka pool will probably be smaller than yours, though.

 

But as you say, it's only a hunch. I can't wait to try some of our theorys out :)



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#227
Musclemagic

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Oh I forgot, I really like your build the only thing is I prefer a self heal instead of another dmg reduction skill (Spiked Armor) but that's something which will need some endgame testing before we can say what will be better.

You guys aren't really seeing the math behind it, I don't think...

Say you have 1000 hp (to make #'s easier). You take 30% less damage through one of your passives... then you take 40% less through another passive. That's 40% of 70% (new total instead of 100%, because 30% less already).. meaning you only get another 28% damage reduction off from keeping that 40% reduction spell up. Another one added...like 20% is only (100-30 = 70, -28 = 42%.. 42 x .2 = 8.4) 8.4% less damage taken from keeping up a spell 100% of the time.. definitely not worth it.

Casting Obsidian Shield every 20s, more if you're under attack, isn't nearly as good as Dragon Blood because of diminishing returns.

Honestly, I'm just telling you guys right now, you should be taking Spiked Armor and Dragon Blood and no other damage reducer.. unless you're using Immovable as an ST suck..

Use Ash Cloud instead, and it doesn't have diminishing returns.

Dodge
Chance for enemy to miss
Reduced damage of enemy
Resistances
Armor
Flat % Self-Reduction
Flat damage reduction per hit taken

Due to diminishing returns, whichever one of these is the lowest % of your total damage reduction (based on total health for the flat numbers) is the one that you'll want to raise at any given time to maximize your passive survivability.


Soaks, I think your build is pretty much spot on for PVE. I really really like it, it's almost exactly what I'd use if I was going to PVE (I always tank PVE).

I don't think it's the best for full on mitigation/damage output, but I think that it overcomes a lot of the mob mechanics (esp boss mechanics) that I picture dungeons having. I think overcoming those mechanics is the heart of making dungeons run smoothly, which is why DK's make the best tanks and everyone who disagrees is a fool. ;)

#228
irons

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You guys aren't really seeing the math behind it, I don't think...Say you have 1000 hp (to make #'s easier). You take 30% less damage through one of your passives... then you take 40% less through another passive. That's 40% of 70% (new total instead of 100%, because 30% less already).. meaning you only get another 28% damage reduction off from keeping that 40% reduction spell up. Another one added...like 20% is only (100-30 = 70, -28 = 42%.. 42 x .2 = 8.4) 8.4% less damage taken from keeping up a spell 100% of the time.. definitely not worth it.Casting Obsidian Shield every 20s, more if you're under attack, isn't nearly as good as Dragon Blood because of diminishing returns.Honestly, I'm just telling you guys right now, you should be taking Spiked Armor and Dragon Blood and no other damage reducer.. unless you're using Immovable as an ST suck..Use Ash Cloud instead, and it doesn't have diminishing returns.DodgeChance for enemy to missReduced damage of enemyResistancesArmorFlat % Self-ReductionFlat damage reduction per hit takenDue to diminishing returns, whichever one of these is the lowest % of your total damage reduction (based on total health for the flat numbers) is the one that you'll want to raise at any given time to maximize your passive survivability. Soaks, I think your build is pretty much spot on for PVE. I really really like it, it's almost exactly what I'd use if I was going to PVE (I always tank PVE).I don't think it's the best for full on mitigation/damage output, but I think that it overcomes a lot of the mob mechanics (esp boss mechanics) that I picture dungeons having. I think overcoming those mechanics is the heart of making dungeons run smoothly, which is why DK's make the best tanks and everyone who disagrees is a fool. ;)

First of all you don't know if that really works that way or if it just adds up.Secondly Obsidian Shield is great because you gain stamina back for it and it doesn't really reduce the dmg taken it just absorbs a part of the incoming dmg different formulation which means it actually could work even if your math would be right which we don't know.Another thing is I never used more than two dmg reduction spells in my builds.If you have Dragon Blood on your hotbar you don't really need spiked Armor because when you use it your health regeneration goes up and the passive 5% extra isn't that much.With 1000 HP and 3% combat reg plus an increase of 12% (7 from your armor and 5 from dragon blood)you have 30 x 1.12 = 33.6 = 33or with Spiked Armor 30 x 1.17 = 35.1 = 352 points passive reg isn't that huge.

#229
Soaks

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You guys aren't really seeing the math behind it, I don't think...Say you have 1000 hp (to make #'s easier). You take 30% less damage through one of your passives... then you take 40% less through another passive. That's 40% of 70% (new total instead of 100%, because 30% less already).. meaning you only get another 28% damage reduction off from keeping that 40% reduction spell up. Another one added...like 20% is only (100-30 = 70, -28 = 42%.. 42 x .2 = 8.4) 8.4% less damage taken from keeping up a spell 100% of the time.. definitely not worth it.Casting Obsidian Shield every 20s, more if you're under attack, isn't nearly as good as Dragon Blood because of diminishing returns.Honestly, I'm just telling you guys right now, you should be taking Spiked Armor and Dragon Blood and no other damage reducer.. unless you're using Immovable as an ST suck..Use Ash Cloud instead, and it doesn't have diminishing returns.DodgeChance for enemy to missReduced damage of enemyResistancesArmorFlat % Self-ReductionFlat damage reduction per hit takenDue to diminishing returns, whichever one of these is the lowest % of your total damage reduction (based on total health for the flat numbers) is the one that you'll want to raise at any given time to maximize your passive survivability.Soaks, I think your build is pretty much spot on for PVE. I really really like it, it's almost exactly what I'd use if I was going to PVE (I always tank PVE).I don't think it's the best for full on mitigation/damage output, but I think that it overcomes a lot of the mob mechanics (esp boss mechanics) that I picture dungeons having. I think overcoming those mechanics is the heart of making dungeons run smoothly, which is why DK's make the best tanks and everyone who disagrees is a fool. ;)

 

Based on what I've seen in other games, I do believe you are right. I hope not, but still...

Ash Cloud is a good contender for the Obsidian Shield slot, but as irons says, it will probably not trigger the +4% stamina passive :(

Although I could probably do without that stamina boost. I'll have to do some more thinking :)



#230
Musclemagic

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First of all you don't know if that really works that way or if it just adds up.Secondly Obsidian Shield is great because you gain stamina back for it and it doesn't really reduce the dmg taken it just absorbs a part of the incoming dmg different formulation which means it actually could work even if your math would be right which we don't know.Another thing is I never used more than two dmg reduction spells in my builds.If you have Dragon Blood on your hotbar you don't really need spiked Armor because when you use it your health regeneration goes up and the passive 5% extra isn't that much.With 1000 HP and 3% combat reg plus an increase of 12% (7 from your armor and 5 from dragon blood)you have 30 x 1.12 = 33.6 = 33or with Spiked Armor 30 x 1.17 = 35.1 = 352 points passive reg isn't that huge.

 

This isn't really what I was trying to argue, I was saying that the diminishing returns on % dmg reduction makes it not worth taking spiked armor, obsidian shield, immovable, and whatever else % reduction there is at the same time...

And, yes...I don't know if that's how it really works, but if it works additionally rather than being multiplicative then the game would be broken, so I actually would bet you money that I'm right.

 

I wasn't talking about regeneration at all, just the Dragon Blood heal + having the regen active for the 12% incrs healing if you take Obsidian instead of Spiked to get that passive... as long as you have the +12% incrs healing, the +28% regen+7%+5% is just decent..this'll probably be additive because it's beneficial positive rather than negative benefits, but the difference here between additive and multiplicative isn't much anyway. Let's pretend it's additive and do the math. If you have Dragon Blood on all the time and that's your only +5% ability then you're getting +40% hp regen, which is only 1.2% extra per second on a base of 3%. That's a big difference over time but if you're getting bursted it's probably nothing worth jizzing over. I wouldn't worry about getting that +% regen...but this really is just heresay at this point, since we don't know how many seconds the fights will last it's impossible to calculate the actual difference that % per second will make.

 

Spiked VS Magma depends... but my point is that because of DR you should just take one or the other, there's so much DR (because I really do guarantee it will be multiplicative) that any other form of ability will be a better choice.

 

Based on what I've seen in other games, I do believe you are right. I hope not, but still...

Ash Cloud is a good contender for the Obsidian Shield slot, but as irons says, it will probably not trigger the +4% stamina passive :(

Although I could probably do without that stamina boost. I'll have to do some more thinking :)

 

It has to be right, there's no way that 40% + 30% + 20% reduction is going to apply like that. 100% x .4 = 60%, x.3 = 42%, x.2 = 33.6% damage taken rather than 10%. It's still really good, for sure, but it's not as good as other distributions because on top of it being multiplicative there's also going to be soft-caps if not even hard-caps within every stat...so you'll want to divvy it up as even as possible.

 

Edit: Just take obsidian shield instead of Spiked Armor and you'll still get Helping Hands, yeah? :)



#231
irons

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Based on what I've seen in other games, I do believe you are right. I hope not, but still...
Ash Cloud is a good contender for the Obsidian Shield slot, but as irons says, it will probably not trigger the +4% stamina passive :(
Although I could probably do without that stamina boost. I'll have to do some more thinking :)

The thing with Ash cloud is that you have 30% miss chance which means if it runs bad for you get the full dmg of the big hits in.

This isn't really what I was trying to argue, I was saying that the diminishing returns on % dmg reduction makes it not worth taking spiked armor, obsidian shield, immovable, and whatever else % reduction there is at the same time...
And, yes...I don't know if that's how it really works, but if it works additionally rather than being multiplicative then the game would be broken, so I actually would bet you money that I'm right.

I wasn't talking about regeneration at all, just the Dragon Blood heal + having the regen active for the 12% incrs healing if you take Obsidian instead of Spiked to get that passive... as long as you have the +12% incrs healing, the +28% regen+7%+5% is just decent..this'll probably be additive because it's beneficial positive rather than negative benefits, but the difference here between additive and multiplicative isn't much anyway. Let's pretend it's additive and do the math. If you have Dragon Blood on all the time and that's your only +5% ability then you're getting +40% hp regen, which is only 1.2% extra per second on a base of 3%. That's a big difference over time but if you're getting bursted it's probably nothing worth jizzing over. I wouldn't worry about getting that +% regen...but this really is just heresay at this point, since we don't know how many seconds the fights will last it's impossible to calculate the actual difference that % per second will make.

Spiked VS Magma depends... but my point is that because of DR you should just take one or the other, there's so much DR (because I really do guarantee it will be multiplicative) that any other form of ability will be a better choice.

It has to be right, there's no way that 40% + 30% + 20% reduction is going to apply like that. 100% x .4 = 60%, x.3 = 42%, x.2 = 33.6% damage taken rather than 10%. It's still really good, for sure, but it's not as good as other distributions because on top of it being multiplicative there's also going to be soft-caps if not even hard-caps within every stat...so you'll want to divvy it up as even as possible.

First of all you shouldn't compare Spiked Armor with Magma Armor.
Better compare Spiked Armor with Obsidian Shield.
Spiked Armor gives you a reduction of 30% a 5% passiv reg + 12% heal while active
While Obsidian Shield has a reduction of 40% costs less is an AoE and gives you 5% stamina back

You take Dragon Blood for the strong self heal of 25% you wouldn't try to spam it for the reg bonus.

It has to be right, there's no way that 40% + 30% + 20% reduction is going to apply like that. 100% x .4 = 60%, x.3 = 42%, x.2 = 33.6% damage taken rather than 10%. It's still really good, for sure, but it's not as good as other distributions because on top of it being multiplicative there's also going to be soft-caps if not even hard-caps within every stat...so you'll want to divvy it up as even as possible.


Edit: Just take obsidian shield instead of Spiked Armor and you'll still get Helping Hands, yeah? :)

When you do that math don't forget that the first dmg reduction is 4% and comes from heavy armor.

I would never use 3 dmg reduction skills unless it's neccessary because I think it would be overkill.

----------------- Merged Posts -----------------

A different thing:

Tanks as DPS or How much dmg will a Tank be able to deal compared to a pure DPS?


If we take a look at all the dmg reduction a Tank has compared to normal DPS.
There would be more Armor, more HP, higher HP reg more incomming healing, dmg reduction, better blocking.


And if you take a look at the skills there aren't many heavy DPS skills but lot's of utility or defensive skills.

So do you guys think that a Tank will be able to keep up with a pure DPS?

#232
Musclemagic

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DK build I could see myself using: Redguard, S+B/Bow, Heavy Armor.

S+B -

Fiery Reach

Inferno

Spiked Armor

Ash Field

Defensive Posture

+Magma Armor.

 

Bow -

Volley

Molten Weapons

Dragon Blood

Reflective Scale

Snipe

+Powercharge (works well with Molten Weapons)



#233
Musclemagic

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First of all you shouldn't compare Spiked Armor with Magma Armor.Better compare Spiked Armor with Obsidian Shield.Spiked Armor gives you a reduction of 30% a 5% passiv reg + 12% heal while activeWhile Obsidian Shield has a reduction of 40% costs less is an AoE and gives you 5% stamina backYou take Dragon Blood for the strong self heal of 25% you wouldn't try to spam it for the reg bonus.

 

Yeah, I meant Spiked/Obsidian, not Magma- My bad. XD

I agree that you should take something from Draconic Power for the passives, but I think Dragon Blood's the better choice if you're going to take Obsidian Shield (I get them all confused, I keep meaning to take Obsidian + Blood... I actually think we're agreeing on this? XD)



#234
Musclemagic

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A different thing:Tanks as DPS or How much dmg will a Tank be able to deal compared to a pure DPS?If we take a look at all the dmg reduction a Tank has compared to normal DPS.There would be more Armor, more HP, higher HP reg more incomming healing, dmg reduction, better blocking.And if you take a look at the skills there aren't many heavy DPS skills but lot's of utility or defensive skills.So do you guys think that a Tank will be able to keep up with a pure DPS?

 

I think tanks will do plenty of DPS because they'll get the first hits as well as the most AOE damage in (probably). I feel like tanks are OP when it comes to min/max of overall numbers, the problem is that they need to put in a lot more stam/MP because their regen is so much lower from Heavy Armor.

 

I actually think that a tank in Medium might be the best choice if you plan on soloing a lot, because you'll be able to use like 20% more abilities, yeah? What do you think? They definitely won't do as much as a pure dps, but I think they'll do quite a lot in comparison to how much they can survive..which is why I think whichever alliance has the most tanks is the one that will win the most Cyrodiil battles..which is why I'm going Daggerfall. :P



#235
irons

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Yeah, I meant Spiked/Obsidian, not Magma- My bad. XDI agree that you should take something from Draconic Power for the passives, but I think Dragon Blood's the better choice if you're going to take Obsidian Shield (I get them all confused, I keep meaning to take Obsidian + Blood... I actually think we're agreeing on this? XD)

Yeah :-)Unless Obsidian Shield turns out to be useless because the shield strength is to low so that 1 hit from a boss takes it away.

#236
irons

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I think tanks will do plenty of DPS because they'll get the first hits as well as the most AOE damage in (probably). I feel like tanks are OP when it comes to min/max of overall numbers, the problem is that they need to put in a lot more stam/MP because their regen is so much lower from Heavy Armor. I actually think that a tank in Medium might be the best choice if you plan on soloing a lot, because you'll be able to use like 20% more abilities, yeah? What do you think? They definitely won't do as much as a pure dps, but I think they'll do quite a lot in comparison to how much they can survive..which is why I think whichever alliance has the most tanks is the one that will win the most Cyrodiil battles..which is why I'm going Daggerfall. :P

Personally I think that Tanks will have the higher DPS than pure DPS but will deal a lot less dmg while fighting a bossFrom the Heavy Armor they get a 7% dmg boost then I think melee will deal more dmg than range. Tanks are able to stay the whole fight close to the enemy.The point where DPS will deal more dmg than Tanks is because the have more ressources and therefore can use more skills and skills deal more dmg than basic attacks.

#237
irons

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A medium armor Tank? Hm I don't know you don't really get good boni except for your stamina reg so I would stick with my heavy armor.Tanky DPS in PvP will be a pain in the ass. Just think about of a bunch of DKs which use their AoE dmg controlls and then are supported by a few Mages and Templer.I agree that the Daggerfall Convenant will be a strong factions and from what I see there will be quite a few organized guilds als well for them.Plus people love the underdog.

#238
Musclemagic

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QQ - Does anyone know if Breton will be all magic resistances @ 750 res @ clvl 50?

 

 

*Something about dodge < reduce total DMG.*

 

Dodging, while you will get hit by the full damage if you're hit, you won't get any of the effects that come from being hit-- if the spell causes a slow, knockback, etc.. you won't get any of that nonsense! ^.^

 

I almost want to make a dodge/miss build. XD

 

Templar's Blinding Light ability seems OP, I wonder what's up with it.



#239
irons

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QQ - Does anyone know if Breton will be all magic resistances @ 750 res @ clvl 50? Dodging, while you will get hit by the full damage if you're hit, you won't get any of the effects that come from being hit-- if the spell causes a slow, knockback, etc.. you won't get any of that nonsense! ^.^ 

I know what I mean is dogde is more RNG than dmg reduce you never know what you really get.

#240
Musclemagic

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I know what I mean is dogde is more RNG than dmg reduce you never know what you really get.

 

Yeah, more RNG. But, on average it's more effective because it causes all effects (not only the damage) to miss. Depends on playstyle choice though, for sure it's greater risk.. I guess I'm okay with that. XD

 

ps- Do you (or anyone) know if you can dodge an AOE in ESO?

 

__________________________

I like RNG... dodge crit FTW! Here's a solid single-target build with both! :P

 

Khajiit – NB – Heavy – DW + S&S

 

DW- Teleport Strike + Flurry spam = single target death with Assassin's Blade finisher.

15% incrs damage against stunned targets. 5% crit chance from Dagger in Offhand. Crit rating and extra crit damage from being Khajiit. 15% crit chance from 5 (x3%) Assassination abilities slotted. 20% extra damage on targets under 25%..

5% base crit chance + 20% + racial and crits doing +30% (on top of regular crit bonus) damage = huge hits all day.


    [*]

    Blur – M

    [*]

    Haste – M

    [*]

    Teleport Strike – M

    [*]

    Flurry – S

    [*]

    Assassin's Blade – M

    [*]

    Death Stroke – U

    [/list]

     

    S&S- Summon Shade not only helps tank things but increases stamina regen on top of the weaken. Strife for a small HOT. Blur/Immovable for passive dmg reduction. Defensive Posture for the active and small passive block bonus.


      [*]

      Blur – M

      [*]

      Immovable – S

      [*]

      Defensive Posture – S

      [*]

      Strife – M

      [*]

      Summon Shade – M

      [*]

      Consuming Darkness – U

      [/list]

       

      I know the S&S bar sucks compared to a DK or even a Temp S&S build, and there's no AOE anywhere, but I think it's a very strong single-target build for sure.

       

      The thing is that it will easily kill anyone in light armor and then be strong enough to survive a group fight as melee..which is hard to do as most other DPS builds. I can see a DK build with DW+S&S working better for S&S but a lot slower kills in DW.






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