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Min/Max Combos (Very Early Theorycrafting)


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#316
irons

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...But let's get to the important gist here. "Boni" sounds very peculiar. Who, in the name of Christ, influenced you people to say it like that?

the plural of the latin word bonus is bonusse or boni

 

 

1500 health from going all out health or 1000 health from going zero health (and instead magicka and/or stamina) is not that huge either.But if you are going to main tank content that you have not beat yet then everything ads up...small party size of just 4 people might be important that tank and healer can help with dps. But that is assuming eso will have boss encounters with enrage counters or simular time pressure mechanics.

The thing is I think that a DK can get away with 5 pieces medium armor.

From the balance aspect I think that they designed their encounter so that a normal tank (heavy armor sword and shield) from all classes can tank. However a DK has more survibility than other classes that's why I think that a DK can get away with 5 pieces medium armor.



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#317
Xenon

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...But let's get to the important gist here. "Boni" sounds very peculiar. Who, in the name of Christ, influenced you people to say it like that?

 

I am pretty sure the correct plural form of Bonus is Boni.

One Bonus.

Two Boni.

 

Same as one focus. Two foci.

 

Why you feel that is "very peculiar"?

 

 

The thing is I think that a DK can get away with 5 pieces medium armor.

From the balance aspect I think that they designed their encounter so that a normal tank (heavy armor sword and shield) from all classes can tank. However a DK has more survibility than other classes that's why I think that a DK can get away with 5 pieces medium armor.

 

My point was that if you are crawling dungeons that don't really push your limit... then you can probably get away with a lot of stuff. Maybe you don't even need anyone with sword n board and maybe you can get away with a restoration staff as a back up weapon or maybe a DPS templar (without restoration staff) that only have a single heal-related ability on his hot bar.

 

Maybe ESO encounters are not even build around having a main tank with the main purpose keeping all mobs away from the healer and minimize party overall damage taken while DPS do their thing without standing still in fire and a single dedicated healer spam healing the tank, preferable from a safe distance.

 

But IF there will be dungeons that really push the limit. Where you need every buff you can get. Every advantage. THEN it feel very natural to select a tank that focused all his attribute points into health. That picked dragon knight as a starting class. That picked a race with survival focused passive stats (for daggerfall that would be Orc and for Ebonheart that would be Argonian or Nord. All Aldmeri races make equally good tanks). That wield one hand and a shield. Wear heavy armor and only pick a piece of medium if he can fit Evasion on his hot bar and only a single piece of light armor for annulment if a particular boss is a caster. Picked all 5 active skills that focus on taunts and avoid and/or reduce damage taken (in various ways; self heal, shield, buff, debuff, cc....).



#318
Francis

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...Yeah, do yourselves a favor, don't rely on message board linguists. I'd have to believe there's an exception to the two-syllable rule, if you could somehow catch my drift.



#319
irons

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But IF there will be dungeons that really push the limit. Where you need every buff you can get. Every advantage. THEN it feel very natural to select a tank that focused all his attribute points into health. That picked dragon knight as a starting class. That picked a race with survival focused passive stats (for daggerfall that would be Orc and for Ebonheart that would be Argonian or Nord. All Aldmeri races make equally good tanks). That wield one hand and a shield. Wear heavy armor and only pick a piece of medium if he can fit Evasion on his hot bar and only a single piece of light armor for annulment if a particular boss is a caster. Picked all 5 active skills that focus on taunts and avoid and/or reduce damage taken (in various ways; self heal, shield, buff, debuff, cc....).

I just did the math with a Highelf Sorccerer Tank full health full heavy armor sword and shield vs my Redguard DK 5 medium 2 heavy armor 30 points into stamina an 19 in health.

The Sorccerer takes about 2% less dmg (if you calculate the 20% more armor as 20% less dmg).

However my DK gets more healing has way more ressources and would be able to keep up Evasion and Immoveable which the Sorc Tank couldn't.

 

I will do the math for a full DK Tank compared to mine tomorrow, but what you seem to forget is the huge advantage which comes with the higher stamina reg.

 

 

Let me ask you a personal question.

Do you personally think that there will be a dungeon in ESO which will require a DK Tank who completly focuses on tanking?



#320
irons

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Just calculated a little bit. Pure HP tank builds have to drop Immoveable othwerwise the run out of stamina to quickly.

But the dmg mitigation lost by this skill is worth more than the dmg mitigation you win through the higher armor rating.

The remaining advantage is the higher HP reg.

 

I'm quite confident that my dmg Tank will be able to Tank all dungeons just fine.



#321
David

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the plural of the latin word bonus is bonusse or boni

 

I am pretty sure the correct plural form of Bonus is Boni.

One Bonus.

Two Boni.

 

...Yeah, do yourselves a favor, don't rely on message board linguists. I'd have to believe there's an exception to the two-syllable rule, if you could somehow catch my drift.

 

4 semesters of college Latin checking in. Can confirm that the plural of "bonus" is "boni". Caveat: in Latin, the endings change depending on the word's use in a sentence. "Boni" is correct when used as the plural subject, so the following gets an A+.

 

Those boni will be very interesting.

 

Though since we're speaking English it's just "bonuses," so I can understand why it sounds peculiar.

 

Posted Image

 

Carry on, gents.



#322
Francis

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I believe the colloquial evolution of semantic continuity precedes whatever originally mandated "boni" into existence.

 

Posted Image



#323
David

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I believe the colloquial evolution of semantic continuity precedes whatever originally bastardized "boni" into existence.

 

[How the fuck do you post a picture?]

 

Meh. Yeah, sure, whatever, use boni then. I never will. Carry on...

 

Nah, you're right - it should just be "bonuses" in English. Boni is straight-up Latin (and possibly other Romance languages). I don't know why we're speaking Latin for particular words, but it did bring a smile to my face since I never thought I would ever see an instance of it "in the wild."

 

To post an image, you just need to copy the image URL (ending with an image extension, e.g. .jpg .png .gif) and paste it into the box that pops up when you hit the image / photo esque button that's next to the hyperlink button in the editor.

 

Anyways, I'll bow out of this thread since I'm breaking my own rules and carrying everything off topic.



#324
Francis

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Nah, you're right - it should just be "bonuses" in English. Boni is straight-up Latin (and possibly other Romance languages). I don't know why we're speaking Latin for particular words, but it did bring a smile to my face since I never thought I would ever see an instance of it "in the wild."

 

To post an image, you just need to copy the image URL (ending with an image extension, e.g. .jpg .png .gif) and paste it into the box that pops up when you hit the image / photo esque button that's next to the hyperlink button in the editor.

 

Thanks. Can't believe I missed that. I've also edited the wording to keep things Calvin-and-Hobbes-friendly along with the picture.

 

 

 

Anyways, I'll bow out of this thread since I'm breaking my own rules and carrying everything off topic.

 

I'm quite the stranger to forums, but it sounds like somebody's got a ruler up their rear end. C'mon, a little anarchy never hurt anyone.



#325
Xenon

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However my DK gets more healing has way more ressources and would be able to keep up Evasion and Immovable which the Sorc Tank couldn't.

 

But the Sorc tank would get access to Bound Armor and/or Lightning Form - both costing Magicka rather than Stamina (so you basically double dip into two resources to increase your survivability). Sorcerers passives can reduce both stamina and magicka cost of all abilities as well as giving him better magicka regeneration -so he would probably have an easier time to keep up Annulment against a boss that is a caster. 

 

You can also play a redguard sorcerer tank just like you can play a redguard DK tank, so the passive stamina recovery from race is not really an issue when comparing two base classes...

 

Having said that, I do think DK make better tanks; but that assumption is only based on the defensive nature of all draconic power passives (and the rather long duration of spiked armor making it rather easy to keep up 24/7).

 

 

 

Let me ask you a personal question.

Do you personally think that there will be a dungeon in ESO which will require a DK Tank who completly focuses on tanking?

 

Not before end game, no.

And not even at max level -at release.

 

I have the feeling that ESO is more "casual" friendly that let you play whatever style you want and still be somewhat efficient. That there will be little or no need to play highly optimized race-class-weapon-role combinations. From what little dungeon crawling I've seen it seem as if you can get away without having a dedicated tank at all... shrug

 

But eventually, maybe... 

That all comes down to how much time and effort ESO is willing to spend just to cater the top 5% elitist crowd.

 

It is a two fold issue. If you don't cater for them then they will leave for another game that will offer more high end challenges -and that might start a downward spiral. If you cater them too much then you will pour resources into areas that the majority of the player base will never even experience.

 

 

 

 

If the English plural form of Bonus is Bonuses; What is the English plural form of Focus then...?

I always assumed it was Foci. 

...is it Focuses??

(English is not my first language)



#326
irons

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But the Sorc tank would get access to Bound Armor and/or Lightning Form - both costing Magicka rather than Stamina (so you basically double dip into two resources to increase your survivability). Sorcerers passives can reduce both stamina and magicka cost of all abilities as well as giving him better magicka regeneration -so he would probably have an easier time to keep up Annulment against a boss that is a caster. 

I took that into calculation. Lightning Form is actually a very expensive skills compared to others + the DK has also magicka based dmg mitigation skills.

 

 

Not before end game, no.

And not even at max level -at release.

 

I have the feeling that ESO is more "casual" friendly that let you play whatever style you want and still be somewhat efficient. That there will be little or no need to play highly optimized race-class-weapon-role combinations. From what little dungeon crawling I've seen it seem as if you can get away without having a dedicated tank at all... shrug

That's the same way I feel it to be. The beauty on my build is if needed I could allways switch to full heavy armor the only thing missing would be 300 HP, but therefore I don't have to worry too much about my stamina.

 

 

If the English plural form of Bonus is Bonuses; What is the English plural form of Focus then...?

I always assumed it was Foci. 

...is it Focuses??

(English is not my first language)

Basically it's the same like before foci and focuses are both correct forms but in that case focuses is the more common form.

(English also isn't my first language)



#327
Xenon

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Radius and Radii then? :)

Radiuses?? 



#328
irons

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Radius and Radii then? :)

Radiuses?? 

Come on just use google to find out :-)



#329
Musclemagic

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Good morning, thanks for giving me something to read when I woke up. :)

 

If you guys think about other games then you'll realize that you really do need to not only have a specific class tank in specific fights, but even within that class they often need to re-spec for each dungeon in order to overcome specific dungeon mechanics. For the endgame content I do think you'll want full heavy for full mitigation, not necessarily because of the Armor stat, but because the set bonuses for heavy will be geared for tanking rather than damage and such on medium.

 

You can calculate it out right now, but it'll change when we know what the hard numbers on enchantments are. I do agree that medium armor would allow you to keep evasion/immovable up a bit more and that might give you more mitigation in the long run, but with regen enchantments it might not even be necessary.

 

I do think you'll want at least 1 piece of Medium for Evasion though, in which case I'd take 2 that give a nice 2-piece set bonus. :P I am almost certain that if I'm tanking I'll be using 5h+2m because Evasion is really strong, and taking 1 piece of something when I could get a bonus for taking another where a bonus most likely won't fit in with 6 heavy is probably going to be better than just 6h/1m.

 

DK is the logical choice for damage mitigation. But, for overcoming mechanics (which has always been the most important factor in tanking) then DK doesn't necessarily have better options than say a Sorc who can bolt escape (Puncture then Bolt Escape, repeat until the DPS kill the target. This could be a common necessity.) and then maybe winged twilight will be a nice addition to tanking through a morph. (Seems likely, since Twilight was initially supposed to be tanky.) 

 

In another situation it might be better for a NB to stand away from the group while tanking, Puncture and then Cloak. The target would then run toward the rest of the group for 2.5s and then the NB would reappear and the target would run back to the NB for 2.5s (since it's a 5s taunt), meaning that it wouldn't be able to do damage in melee range anyway for pretty much 5 seconds. Like we kind of said before, I don't think that most interrupts, slows, and incapacitates will work on the bigger boss-fights..so that's something to take into account when weighing mitigation.

 

But, we have no idea what mechanics the dungeons will bring us.. this is why I only really care about PVP theorycraft at this point, because that's the only thing we have an idea of what the enemy will be like.

 

In PVP I think that you're right on, irons, that you'll have plenty of mitigation and you'd do better overall by getting more damage and utility as a DK tank in PVP. :)



#330
Musclemagic

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Sorry for the DP, but I forgot to include this thought:

 

I actually think that the 3% base regen won't be modified through extra % regen, but that all the +flat regen will be modified by further +% regen. You feel me?

 

3%+(X*Y%) where X is the flat regen you have and Y is 1+the percent of extra regen you get.

 

For example, if you have 100 stamina you'll automatically have 3/second. If you also have +10 regen from something, then you'll have 13/second. But, if you have something that gives +50% stamina regen then you'd have 3+(10*1.5) for 18.






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